EliteCM.net

As many of you know, my posts and DIY's are filled with childish comments and lewd references to any number of things.  If you don't like it, too bad.  I like to at least sound funny when I'm making a point, and maybe people will get more out of the experience.  Read this and laugh a bit.  After all, this is what you do for FUN, right? Shouldn't the instructions to your toys be as fun to read as playing with said toys in the first place??

This guide is intended to be used as an aid to the installation, operation, and maintenance of a Hondata Kpro ECU in a 7G Honda Accord.

Disclaimer: Use this guide at your own risk.  By reading and understanding this guide, you automatically acknowledge that you have read and completely understand ALL pertinent hondata warnings, disclaimers, instruction manuals, etc provided either electronically or otherwise.  If you have not already done so, please go to http://www.hondata.com/tech and read up on anything that sounds foreign to you.  Also please visit http://www.hondata.com/ktech for information on working with the Kmanager software.  The information contained in this thread is all original work and is the sole intellectual property of Steven Richardson (Theskip).  If you wish to reproduce, disseminate, or otherwise alter this work or use it on another forum, it requires my express permission and at the very least a mention on the forum that it is my work and where to find me if people have questions.  My DIY's have been C/P'd on other forums without my consent and without mention before and I do not appreciate it.  Just play nice, ok?[/size]


OK.  With that out of the way, let me just say this thread is a work in progress and it's gonna take a while for me to put all the information together and upload it here.  That having been said, welcome to the Kpro thread.  Right now it's just a bunch of photos and descriptions, but it will soon become a documentary of all that we have done to achieve the relatively impossible.  Through countless hours of collaboration, AIM sessions, phone calls, troubleshooting, and the hard work of one gifted guy out in Oregon, 7G accords now have a way to utilize the Hondata Kpro.

This thread is dedicated to Cham and the rest of the people who made all of this possible.  Without everybody's help we'd still be picking our noses and emailing hondata with our flames and rants.

ON TO WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE! @_@

Section 1: Basic information

The first step to running a hondata Kpro is first acquiring one of these:

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d93/thedeke/hondata.jpg)

As if I didn't describe this enough above (alluding to the still un-written introduction to this thread)...The hondata Kpro can be made by starting with one of a few different K series ECU's.  The End user difference between ECU's is in price and in functionality (or lack thereof) of the reverse lockout solenoid.  PND/PNF ECU's are a bit cheaper to acquire than PRB ECU's, and are therefore that much cheaper to get converted to Kpro.  For users with automatic or 5MT transmissions, the reverse lockout solenoid is not needed, so there is no reason to pay extra for a true PRB Kpro.  Conversely, those (like me) who have swapped from 5MT to TSX 6MT (or those who have swapped AT/6MT), the PRB ECU makes use of the reverse lockout solenoid to prevent accidental shifts into reverse while the vehicle is moving forwards.  For those who have 6MT's and don't care to spend the extra cash on a PRB ECU for Kpro (like me), all Kpro's offer the same features, so you're not getting cheated out of anything if you want to save a little money.


After acquiring a Kpro, you're going to need one of these:

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d93/thedeke/Kpro/P5160059.jpg)

Cham's nifty jumper harness is pictured cradling the Kpro.  This jumper harness allows 7G accord owners to use the Kpro ECU.  Since the Accord and other Kpro compatible cars are wired differently, a complex jumper harness is required to use the harness in our vehicles.  Cham designed, prototyped, and developed this harness for our use.  For reasons stated above, the Kpro cannot control the accord's HVAC, instrument cluster, and other very important subsystems.  The only thing that the Kpro can do well is control a K series engine.  Cham designed the harness to utilize both the Kpro ECU to control the engine only, while the Accord's ECU controlled the rest of the vehicle.  The harness gives necessary sensor inputs to the accord's ECU so that it can still control those related sub-systems, but prevents the stock ECU from controlling the engine.

SPECIAL MODIFICATIONS

Two very important modifications have been made to Cham's harness since his first units were produced.  These are the addition of external VTC wires, and the external CEL.

EXTERNAL VTC WIRES:

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d93/thedeke/Kpro/P5160064.jpg)

I'm not sure why Cham had to make this modification, but I trust in his knowledge.  These external VTC wires need to be connected to the VTC actuator located on the cam side of the head (The left side).  The two stock wires need to be cut from the connector, and these need to be put in their place.  For my own convenience, I decided to use bullet connectors as a temporary solution to hooking up these wires.  I decided to do this because I am Kpro'ing my vehicle on its stock motor as a trial before my fully built NA engine is installed.  If there is any problem with the Kpro, its harness, or whatever else that I can't think of, I want to be able to get back on the stock ECU as quickly as possible.

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d93/thedeke/Kpro/P5160065.jpg)

These bad boys make it incredibly easy to convert back to stock in case of an emergency.  I will fit similar connectors to the stock harness when I cut the wires going to the VTC actuator.  If I have a problem with anything, all that needs to be done is to unplug the Kpro's VTC feed, plug the stock wires in, unplug the Kpro from its harness, and return all connections to the stock ECU.  After the new motor is built and installed, I will make a permanent connection for these VTC wires, as reverting to the stock ECU will not be possible at that point.


THE EXTERNAL CHECK ENGINE LIGHT:

We asked for it, and he made it happen! An unforeseen issue with Kpro'ing a 7G, the ECU will set a DTC related to communication errors because it is not controlling the engine.  Unfortunately we don't know what these codes are because the Kpro uses the DLC, but they are certainly due to communication errors.  Again, due to the differences between Kpro compatible vehicles, the CEL needs to be wired up externally through the harness.  Since the 7G gauge clusters are LED based, there's no way to pull the bulb or rig up an LED directly to the cluster board, so Cham has tapped the harness for an external CEL.  The external CEL gives the driver notice that there are Kpro related DTC's present.  The LED can be mounted anywhere, so I won't go into where to do so.

Here are some pictures of how I modified Cham's harness before I installed it.

Tools and materials
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d93/thedeke/Kpro/P5160057.jpg)
THE SQUID!
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d93/thedeke/Kpro/P5160066.jpg)
Looks just like any other part of a stock harness
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d93/thedeke/Kpro/P5160067.jpg)


Section 2: Modifications needed to make Kpro work in your 7G

Part 1: The air fuel sensor.

Since nobody has been able to give me a straight answer as to if the stock accord A/F sensor is wideband, I'm going to make my own assumptions and post them here.  First off...the RSX-S primary A/F sensor is a confirmed wideband.  Since Kpro was designed for the RSX-S, I'm going to posit that the best equipment to use is equipment from the car that the EMS was designed for.  If anybody wants to give me the correct information, I'll gladly exchange it here in place of the load of bullsh*t I just made you read.

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d93/thedeke/Kpro/P5160046.jpg)

Ok, so you bought an RSX-S primary A/F sensor...but now you're stuck trying to push two male connectors together...it's ok to be gay..but it's not ok to waste time.  

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d93/thedeke/Kpro/P5160045.jpg)

The accord's stock A/F sensor connector is female, and the engine harness is male.  The RSX-S is the exact opposite.  For those of you like me, who enjoy having stuff that's easily convertable to stock, you can make your own custom sensor setup.  I had an extra accord primary A/F sensor lying around from when I tore my donor motor down, so I decided to modify the sensor before even thinking of installing the Kpro just to make things easier on installation day.  Again, this also adheres to my quick reversion back to stock in case of a Kpro related issue.

So here's what I did.

At first I thought of re-pinning the sensor, but I quickly got tired of that idea when I tried to de-pin the female connector...so I decided to use the cut and solder method.

First lets go over the materials for the job.  You'll need a soldering gun, acid core solder, shrink tube, and a wire stripper/cutter.  You'll also need an RSX-S primary A/F sensor, and an Accord primary A/F sensor.  I do not recommend using your only stock sensor as the effects of using an RSX-S A/F sensor on an un-Kpro'd accord have not been studied.

The first step is to notice that the accord's sensor signal wire is blue, and the RSX-S's is green.  You will be soldering these two together.  If you're colorblind you're OK by default, but for the rest of us...

The white wire is the power wire for the sensor's heater.  Match these up.

The two black wires are grounds.  One for the sensor signal wire, the other for the sensor heater.  I didn't care how I hooked these up since they're both grounds...I mean come on...they've got to ground out in roughly the same area on the chassis.

Here are pictures of the process:

The work bench
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d93/thedeke/Kpro/P5160040.jpg)
After all solder joints were made I applied shrink tube.  Notice the blue and green wire connection.  All other connections are common in color between the RSX-S and accord sensors.
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d93/thedeke/Kpro/P5160042.jpg)
The finished product!
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d93/thedeke/Kpro/P5160043.jpg)




BRB, I just found out the Ingalls ETD is out for the accord and I need to buy one ASAP.  Back in 15 minutes...or something.....

same as mike, delete this post when this thread is up and running... but are we going to be starting up a Kpro'd accord basemap database?

We can definitely start doing that.  I will "hopefully" be receiving my harness shortly, and after that's in my posession I'll buy the RSX-S primary A/F sensor and throw the whole mess together.  I'll street tune my car and then I'll see if I can either link to my basemap or describe what changes I made to the hondata map.

Ok guys I have good news.  My harness came in last week and I purchased an RSX-S primary A/F sensor at work when I found out we had them in stock.  I will be installing my Kpro hopefully on wednesday (my next day off), and I will make sure to take lots of pictures for this thread.

Just so everybody keeps their cool, don't worry about the first post, it will be changed as soon as I do a full write-up of my install and write one of my notorious books on the subject.

Awesome Skippy.  I would like to see what it takes to install the harness and what not.  I know you don't want anyone to know where your k-pro is going to be mounted, but all I want to see is how the harness fits into the picture.  I'd totally appreciate it if you could take pics of the install.

Just a little update.  I'm at work and I just finished modifying an RSX-S primary A/F sensor to work with my car.  I did some pretty impressive solder joints and I'm pleased with how smooth it went together.  I had anticipated problems because the sensor wires are tempermental with soldering by nature.  Everything worked out great and I will post pics up tonight along with my introduction into the process.  Depending on conditions at work tomorrow I may install the ECU, or I might choose to do it on my day off (wednesday)...it all depends.  Rest assured pictures will definitely be taken.  

I will take the obligatory "Kpro harness hanging out of cabin" picture and "Kpro sitting on passenger floorboard" pics.  The ECU will be hidden sometime after installation just to make sure things go smoothly.

I will also be using quick connectors for the trial period concerning the VTC wires that Cham supplied.  Since the car will be running on two ECU's, any problems will not be incredibly difficult to fix.  I will put bullet style connectors on both the new wires and the old ones so that if I should run into a problem at any time, all that needs to be done is to disconnect the Kpro harness, plug the stock VTC wires back in, and then the car will be back on a stock ECU within minutes.

Stay tuned for an update tonight!

Skippy, I'd like to make one suggestion.  On the quick release connectors for the VTC wires, please remove those plastic thingies, fill the crimped ends with solder, and then use heat shrink tube to cover as much of the metal connector as possible.  It will be much more reliable than a crimped connection and may save you trouble down the road if there is a loose connection.

Tim, thanks for the recommendation, I will attempt to make that happen ASAP.

For those who haven't heard, I had my car on Kpro for about 4 hours on Wednesday and I had a good experience.  I ran the K24a4 basemap provided with the ECU and it was running extremely rich and I didn't want to drive it in that condition.  I messed with it for a while with my buddies at work and we got the idle up to about 14.3-14.5 AFR which was good..but that didn't take care of the rest of the band.  I am working on fixing the rest of the map but until then I'll just mess around with it here and there.

Update: my conversion with the RSX-S primary A/F sensor worked well with the Kpro and I can say that part was a complete success.  No codes at all from the Kpro concerning that...no codes at all period (which was a very big plus!).

I'm off to sleep for now...more to come soon!

I forget who to credit for this idea, but I think its worth noting in your writeup that there is a second way to hook up a RSX-S wideband O2 sensor:

http://www.casperselectronics.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=CEI&Category_Code=HOND

(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd226/gen7accord/IMG_0703.jpg)

Casper will make female to female O2 extensions for a nominal charge.  Thats the way to go for those (like me) who aren't as handy with a soldering iron as Skip is.  

Excellent find Jim! This is a great alternative for people to use the RSX-S sensor, provided that all connections match the accord harness.  You might need to give them special instructions because I do think that one connection is in a different spot between the connectors.  Will check out and report back.

Would the Civic Si Sensor be plug and play or would these modifications be needed as well?

Hopefully I'll be joining the ranks of people running KPro before the end of the year.  I'm going to look into that adapter from Casper for the RSX WB O2 sensor, even though I'm handy with a soldering iron.

My harness is wired just like the one you posted pics of... I haven't double checked yet, but I'm assuming that all the connections are in the right place.

I'm just copying and pasting this from the Gen7 website:

There are a few things I've found related to Kpro that might be interesting to those who it may concern for perspective and current Kpro users.

1. It is not necessary to use an RSX-S sensor as the wideband sensor. There is a conversion harness for $20 from Casper and you can use any other wideband sensor. I checked this with Hondata, they said it will work. The catch is that you have to calibrate the o2 sensor voltage for each if the sensor is not among the listed ones they have on file. In my case, the AEM UEGO kit will work, I just have to figure out the voltage which comes on the side of the kit.

To clarify, this will work for ANY and ALL wideband sensors, stock or aftermarket. This can be a much cheaper alternative, such as the AEM UEGO kit which is 250 for gauge/sensor.

2. Hondata just released a stock replacement 4bar MAP sensor. I'm sure none of us will be pushing that much power, but it's still an improvement over stock. It's only $140.

I'm still trying to figure out the transmission swap problem, so bear with me there.

So you adjust O2 sensor voltage by going to "options>settings>wideband input" right?  I know there has been some talk about using the civic si sensor instead of the rsx-s sensor, but as far as I can tell the voltage values are the same for both which means they should be exactly the same right?  I have an rsx-s sensor right now, but im wondering if I should sell it and buy a civic si sensor instead...

You could sell it and just buy a UEGO sensor, they are 60 bucks to replace. They are bosch wideband sensors. You just use the "options>settings>wideband input" and plug in the wideband voltage values. There is now no need for the expensive RSX-S sensor. If you are halfway decent with a soddering kit, you can forget the casper conversion harness too.

To add, the RSX-S sensor is not mandatory. You can use a Bosch UEGO replacement sensor from AEM or just in general. Then you can either get the casper harness or soldering the existing connector. You can plug in the voltage charts I provided in the other thread to the Kpro values for wideband input and you can save yourself 200 bucks. The replacement sensor is only 60 bucks.

Figured I would jump into this thread again since it's been a while.  I've been running KPro on my car for about a month now.  Fortunately Cham doesn't live to far from me right now, so he has been a huge asset and has helped me out immensely.  After we got most of the bugs worked out, it has been running smooth with a bit more power.  I'm still idling high, and sometimes the idle seems to stick at 1500 until I blip the throttle, but I believe that has to do with the tune.  I am going to try and get myself to a dyno soon to see what kind of power I'm making at the wheels with all of my bolt ons and KPro.

Kpro being released for DBW system!!!! hondata.com

it appears to only be compatible with the civic.....go figure.

The civic may be running on a different protocol...something about the ECU that can be altered...who cares if it doesn't work with our cars...we can use Kpro..The only advantage of this system is that you can tune everybody under the sun and charge money for it because you don't need to buy an actual ECU to tune the car.  Tuning is done with the stock ECU and you can recoup your money incredibly fast by tuning people's cars.  Tuners are probably going crazy trying to get their hands on these hotcakes.

I'm somewhat turned off by hondata...I called them to address a complaint when I sold my Kpro to a fellow on ClubRSX and the rep sounded ambivalent and uncaring.  Of course they can get away with being like that since they have a monopoly in the K series market, and I understand that they get a LOT of dumb questions in their call center..but it would be better if they at least sounded like they gave a crap.  Hondata are smart enough to make their call center system so advanced as to make you basically authenticate that you've tried everything before calling them...the least they could do would be to care about who they were talking to...Not for nothing..I'm still a very dedicated supporter of their products, but I am ashamed that their support center had the attitude that they did when I called.  I know they didn't know it was "me"..but I wish they "did".

Wait I thought that 06-07s and TSXs couldnt use Kpro before because of their DBW systems... or am I mistaken?

The 04-05 TSX is also DBW.

There must be some difference between the two ECU's otherwise hondata would not have different products available for those two applications.

so who wants to be the test subject for Fpro

tim, ive searched around on hondata.com and their forum and havent found this info. if it will work for the civic and tsx, shouldnt it work on the accord as well?

It could, but someone needs to try it out.  Hondata said that KPro wouldn't run on our cars, and I have been running KPro since February.  If you have DBW TB, I'm sure Cham can figure it out if he had access to an 06-07 Accord.

A kpro solution has recently been released for the 1st gen TSX.  It implements a dual ECU setup similar to our own solution.  Hondata modifies the stock ECU so it will run in the dual setup.  This fact leads me to believe honda ECU's are not as locked down as much as I once believed.  The FPRO solution may work, but I wouldn't consider buying a unit for testing purposes.  If I were looking to see if this would work, I would wait a couple of months for mainstream tuners to acquire them so that you can find a tuner competent in its usage and then roll up to ask if they could try it out on your vehicle.

i want to go k-pro. but i dont even know where to start. where can i better familiarize myself with this?
and i dont understand why they have released a k-pro for the element but not our accords. dont they both use k24a4's

Have you read this thread? I dont know if anything here will answer your questions.

I asked the same question a year ago, why don't u investigate it! everyones apparently satisfied with cham's harness and doesn't wanna do any r&d work,... IMO a dual ecu setup is a bit risky, but if its ur only option so be it, but hey why not explore this? u can still use the kpro unit just not the element jumper harness,.. but im not overly familiar with either so as others said, do some research

http://www.hondata.com/kpro.html


You prolly have to use an Element ECU but that shouldnt be too hard to find, and your gonna pay the price for the Kpro either way.

We use it because it is the best alternative and because it works.  The fpro solution you are going for is something that hasn't been proven to work, is for DBW TB's, and does not have as many features as kpro.  The r&d work has already been done for kpro and has been proven to work on multiple cars (one of them being mine).  I'm not sure why you have this aversion to using kpro, but sometimes it's better to use what you know works instead of overcomplicating things.


How is it risky?  Hondata has a dual ECU set up for the TSX, what makes Cham's harness any different?  Do you understand the need to run dual ECU's?  The only reason why we have to run 2 ECU's is because you can't modify the Accord ECU for kpro, and because the RSX ECU cannot run the Accord gauges and HVAC.  You can run the car with only the RSX ECU (like the Element kpro), but have no gauges.  The OEM ECU's only purpose is so your gauge cluster works and you retain your HVAC controls.


Is there some reason why you want kpro?  Are you planning on building your motor or do you want it because you think it's a cool idea?  IMHO, it's a waste of money if you only use bolt ons.  Levi has already proven that.  He wasted his money on kpro and a shitty tune and only gained 10 whp.  Since he was only going with bolt ons and didn't want to do any work on the motor, he realized it was a waste of time and money and sold his kpro.  It's an entirely different story if you're planning on building your motor, going the FI route, or swapping motors.

Timmy is 100% correct.  I have trained my apprentice well.

Thanks Tim for completely bashing my Fpro idea and research also for bringing it up because the idea of my post was not about not using Kpro,... I did say that someone should look into the Element Kpro setup, I've always been curious of this myself and have wondered why nowones ever attempted it honestly. But thanks for once again shooting down my answer to a question, that was neither true or false just encouragement in research.

just bc the element has a k24a4 does not make it's ecu identical to an accord. people don't really want to go around when they know there is something out there is working for them already.

Bryan, I wasn't bashing your fpro idea.  I was merely stating facts and trying to clear up some incorrect information.  Show me where I was bashing your fpro idea and I will apologize.  Obviously, you think that I'm here to bash your ideas and make you look bad.  I really don't need to do that.  I'm just backing up something that you seem to be against doing.  I'm also trying to provide information so people can actually be educated about why there is a dual ECU set up for Accords to run kpro.  I guess my explanation for the need of running a dual ECU set up wasn't enough.  Instead, you ignored the information that I was trying to share and made it all about you.  You're not that important.  Trust me.

Now, on with more facts that have absolutely nothing to do with you or your fpro idea Bryan.

Here's the reason why the Element kpro will not work.


What this means is that the Element kpro will not control the gauges or the HVAC in our Accords.  You'd still have to run a dual ECU set up with it.  Basically, what Hondata offers is a modified ECU (which is identical with what is in my car) and a jumper harness.  My assumption is that they have you use the jumper harness because the pin output on the ECU is different after it has been modified by Hondata.

Again, there's nothing wrong with thinking outside the box and trying to find other solutions.  I just don't see the point in trying to reinvent the wheel when there is already an acceptable solution.

well Tim I do appreciate the offer of an apology but hey weve been through this before and I misnterpretted like youve misinterpretted me. As far as running Kpro, I just think its an expensive solution for a4s and even more so for a8s and id imagine running 2 ECUs does kinda suck in terms of a daily driver. If theres anyway I can run 1 im gonna look at it, and the fact that in an a8 I've gotta reswap a stock ecu and tb and throttle pedal on top of getting kpro and a harness.

I know Cham has stated he's looking at running it on DBWs but someone else is already on that project and I had other plans originally. If this turns up a dead end then ill be Kproing, simple as that but hell its been down for a month what's another week or 2 so I can get an answer?

To be honest Bryan, there's no difference with running a 2nd ECU compared to stock.  My car is my DD, and when I kpro'd it in February, there was no change in how my car functioned.  Other than the fact that I have a 2nd ECU stashed away somewhere in my car, there is absolutely no difference at all.  How did you think there was something different about running 2 ECU's?

As far as using kpro with a DBW car, I would assume it is just a matter of sending voltage to the TB.  I'm pretty sure you would keep your OEM ECU if you planned on switching the TB from DBW to DBC.  I did a quick search of the parts needed, and as far as the pedals go, you would be spending less than $100 for the pedal, cable, and other parts.  The TB can be found for a decent price used also.  Hell, I have an extra TB that I'll sell you for cheap if you want to try it.

Id seen everyone elses Kpro squids and it seemed a lil messy, im rough as hell on my car and just didn't want to have to deal with a jacked up harness from tossing books in the passnger seat with no idea how to fix it, but thats good to hear. And like I said I already ordered Fpro and hell its brand new on the market if this doesn't work im sure someone will buy it!
But I do apreciate the TB offer, may take u up on that if its needed in the future.

You wouldn't even know that I had kpro in my car if I didn't tell you I had it.  Maybe it's just the fact that I'm well versed in running wires through cars.  Either way, when done properly, you can have the harness in your car without anything getting in the way.

but on the tsx ecu they have to reflash the stock one and they cant reflash the stock accord one..

I can vouch for that. When I was up in Boston in April, Tim took me for a ride in his car around his area. If he hadn't told me he was running Kpro, I wouldn't know it. His interior is just like mine with some extra audio gear. If something was out of place, I would've noticed.

I'm unsure if Hondata can reflash the Accord ECU, but it's worth looking into.  Hondata doesn't exactly explain what is "reflashed" with the TSX ECU, but my assumption is that it gets rid of the CEL and maybe changes something with the DBW control.  I'll say it again for the people that haven't noticed yet.  I have been running kpro on my car successfully since February without any problems at all.  For anyone with a K24A4, kpro is, in my opinion, the only tuning solution available.  Anything else you buy is a waste of money.

Sorry Bryan, but you have no idea of what you're talking about.  Your assumption that running 2 ECU's is "risky" is unfounded.  If it were "risky", hondata would not have spent the R&D time designing a harness that works like ours does.  Hondata consider their ideas less risky than ours since they made a TSX conversion kit, and still have not made an Accord conversion kit.  Cham, Tim, and I have all run Kpro with the proven 2 ECU setup WITHOUT ANY SERIOUS ISSUE.  Seriously dude...stop talking about stuff you don't understand, and stop making statements that have zero merit.  You keep trying to fight us when you know we're right.  Just because you've got complications with going Kpro since you'll have to do EASY WORK to fix, you feel the need to make a judgment about the entire system and our efforts to circumvent it.  Face the facts..if your F-Pro solution doesn't work, you'll be forced to use a Kpro.  I'm tired of fighting with you in threads and gumming up the works because you fail to accept the fact that I might actually know what I'm talking about, and you're just guessing and making assumptions about 90% of what you're posting.

There is no error with a dual ECU setup....one runs the engine, the other runs the rest of the car...and as for mounting...Cham's harnesses are long enough to relocate the Kpro to a secure location, hiding it and the wires.  The number one image you see of people on Kpro is the entire harness and ECU in a pile on the floorboards, and that's done at the beginning to make sure everything runs right before making it pretty...if something goes wrong, you just have to unplug everything and convert back to stock...instead of tearing your interior apart to remove the ECU and harness after it was hidden before testing.

Ok guys, here is my take since I am the one giving Brian his info and direction. I personally don't liek the idea of the dual ECU setup (I have done this in the past on other vehicles) it just seems a bit clugey to me, but I understand completely why it is used and my hat is off to cham for making it work for the A4s. FPro just seems like a much more elegant and cleaner solution for the A8s since the Si ECU has the full support needed to also run the 7.5 gen Accord. If Brian was a A4 I would have just suggested to go with the known working solution, but I look at the A8 as a oppertunity to at least IMO come up with a different solution that will be a bit less expensive and have less parts to fail.

Paul, thanks for finally coming on scene with us.  I know you are the brains behind the operation and it's good that we can have a dialogue about the EMS that you and Bryan have chosen.  I see why you have chosen the EMS that you have, and I wish you the best of luck.  In truth it may be a bit more elegant than having a Kpro, I'm just worried about the wiring differences between the K24a8 Accord and the FJ Civic Si.  I know both models share the same ETC system which means you won't have an IACV difference, but I am unsure if the Civic is MAF equipped.  I know you've thought about the possibility of having to revert to an Si engine harness, so I'd like to see what your thoughts on the matter are.  I'm not against Fpro, I'm just very wary of it because it's never been tested with an Accord engine harness, which I'm sure is at least somewhat different than its Si counterpart.  

You have my phone number, please keep me updated on the situation, I am more than happy to lend a hand if needed.

Skip, the 06+ si does have a MAF and using Fpro u can tune off of a speed/density map kind of eliminating the MAFs signals anyways

As for what you said about Kpro w/ Cham's harness on an a4 Tim, I agree it is the best solution and my whole presence in this thread originally was to ask why people havent attempted to use Hondata's proven harness for the Element, sorry that was a lie! Encourage research and for someone to look into it and now I know why it is not used. So thank you.

Furthermore I dont know why its a problem to investigate Fpro for use on an a8 when neither Kpro or Fpro have been proven to work on the engine. I do not believe I have but if in the past I have encouraged people to use Fpro I apologize that was not my intent, this is R&D work and a POSSIBLE!! solution for a8s and thats all.

Lastly my intent was not to disrespect or bash the validity of Cham's work, as said previously Ill be attempting to use one of his harness' if this project does not work.

I'd just like to point out that the OP has a K24A4, so this K-Pro/F-Pro debate is a moot point.  The reason why I got involved is because Bryan was posting incorrect information based on a misunderstanding.  I wanted to dispel any incorrect assumptions that Bryan had since a lot of it was untrue.  It doesn't really make much sense that there are multiple threads on the same topic.  The OP should have searched first before creating this thread.  I'd like to also point out that one of the rules we have is to not create multiple threads on one topic.  Because there is already a kpro thread that the OP didn't bother researching first, this thread is locked.

Bryan, I spit the F-Pro posts into a separate thread so you and Paul can continue to update your progress and help others.  I understand your reasoning for wanting to use F-Pro and hope that your and Paul's R&D comes up with positive results.  We all want to make more power and F-Pro seems to be another good solution to tuning K24's.

So to rephrase my question a Y-harness (the ones that Cham makes for an a4) can be used with a few simple changes to run on an a8? I did state that you probably would not have to include an engine harness from an a4, if Im wrong on this then why is Cham saying theres a possibility to run kpro on an a8? I understand theres parts of the engines that I do not understand as well as you but is there something else I am missing or are we just saying theres no tuning solution for the a8 other than the possibility of Fpro?

I have spent several hours with both wiring diagrams and can match every sensor signal and HVAC signal between the two cars, so the route is to take to extension harnesses (one for the A8 and one for the SI and splice them to make a conversion harness. Both cars are MAP and MAF equipped and in fact use the same sensor part numbers including the O2 sensors, so I am very confident this will work......

SO AS I KEEP ON READIN HERE I KEEP SEIN THAT CHAMS HARNESS WOULD ONLY WORK WITH K24A4 BUT NOT WIT THE K24A8..HUH.

As I also said in the F-Pro thread, please do not type in all caps and use proper punctuation.  It's hard to read everything in all caps.  For those of us that communicate using the english language, it's easier to understand what you're trying to say when you use proper punctuation, instead of one giant run on sentence.

im sorry dude.i didnt mean to get anyone mad..

Nobody got mad man.  Just trying to let you know that most people will not pay attention to you (except to give you shit) if you post in all caps all the time.  To answer your question, we do not know whether or not Cham's harness will work with a K24A8 yet because he has not tested one yet.  Fortunately, there is a local member here that would be a prime candidate for testing.  I'm glad that both of them will be at the meet I will be attending tomorrow.

oh ok. so its in the process of being tested..good

No, I'm just trying to set this up right now so you K24A8 guys can have a good EMS option.

Here's another thing I thought I should mention about K-Pro.  I know Cham has dispelled the myth already, but I thought I should show this to the guys that have to get an inspection done.  Right now I am running K-Pro with no CEL on my dash.  Here's the proof:

(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g274/timot_one/Random%20Car%20Pics/nocelma.jpg)

I opened up the gauge cluster the other day, got inside, and covered the OEM CEL with a small piece of electrical tape.  After that, I modified the plastic part between the PCB and the black plastic for the gauges so I could run a LED in the OEM location.  Now I'm using the CEL that is connected to the K-Pro ECU and it looks and functions totally stock.

Awesome stuff there Tim.

good stuff tim ^^

I forgot to mention that this modification only took about an hour to complete, including running the wire for the LED.

Aww no diy pics? So basically you stuck another LED into the same "cell" as the MIL?

Yeah, I know.  I didn't take any pics.  It was one of those last minute mods that I was just doing because I had a few hours to kill while waiting for Cham to show up.  You are correct though.  I basically covered the OEM LED and put the KPro CEL LED in the same "cell" as the OEM CEL.  It's all fairly simple when you get everything apart and see what you're dealing with.  I may take things apart to try and take pics for you guys if I have any time.

would i be able to switch my dbw to a cable tb? and i can do that would i be able to use the kpro or its not that easy

I would wait a bit.  I know Cham is trying to try and adapt his harness for the K24A8's.

tim that sunday that im up there cham can get a go at my car. i also was wondering if you would do something for me. while im up there.

ok im going to just wait them

just FYI

http://www.gen7accord.net/forum/topics/fs-kpro-harness (http://www.gen7accord.net/forum/topics/fs-kpro-harness)

accord is wideband OE Type - Exact Fit; 4 Wire; Wideband A/F; Upstream Sensor; Check / Replace Interval: 100,000 Miles

for the o2 sensor not sure if its a wideband this should help .. being that its an oe part... that should mean that the denso would be a wide band.. and could save people money

Bosch Oxygen Sensor

Part No. 15400

OE Type - Exact Fit; 4 Wire; Wideband A/F; Upstream Sensor; Check / Replace Interval: 100,000 Miles

No updates on Kpro on k24a8 yet?

No time for development.  I've found a K24A8 for Cham to test on, but scheduling is always an issue.

Just to add my two cents into the pot.

I've had kpro on my turbo accord for 2 1/2 years now, zero problems. I figured out the VTC problem before cham realized it, and it was a very easy fix, just resplicing a wire. I had access to a bunch of stock wiring diagrams, but they're on my other computer that's in storage.

If there ever came a time that Cham didn't want to make any of these anymore, his harness can be easily reproduced if someone knows how to pin wires (which I have no clue on). Steven(JBLAccord from awhile back) and I had gone through the idea of making them, and as you know Cham is basically unreachable (he still has my 6spd I paid him for 6 months ago sitting somewhere).

Kpro is better than anything else available. My car was tuned with smaller turbo, less psi, and generally an inferior setup to another Accord running the RTC kit on the same day at the same time on the same dyno and mine made 15whp more. That's all the proof that you can ever need that it's a better EMS.

I guess the big issue would be the DBW and getting around it. I don't know if its possible to isolate it because it acts like the TPS if I'm not mistaken. That's more of a question for skip/tim/paul/cham, because the TPS is a pretty important part of the power equation, unless maybe you could trick the stock ECU/Kpro into thinking it was a TPS. What about maybe even using a TSX ECU instead of a PRB/PRC ECU? Just some thoughts.

interesting. Hey could you post up the pinout chart? I want to see how difficult it is. I have some experience in electronics class. soo lets see if I learned anything lol

And it is a wideband for the o2. I checked out my friend o2 and when to honda to pick it up.

I wonder if we can get an kpro hooked up to the odb2 port or have another one just for the kpro. I was reading the hondata install manual for the tsx and it said it was possible. So that way we dont have to take out the ecu when it comes time for smog. This idea is appealing to me because i live in Cali and dont want to unplug/uninstall it everytime.

http://www.carplugs.com/Product_list_Connectors_1.html (http://www.carplugs.com/Product_list_Connectors_1.html)

That way cars equipped with kpros will be one step closer to being oem in performance.

My K-Pro is connected to my OBDII port.

Okay again no pics? haha Would you like to help me out? Did you make a harness? Splice connect?

I think imma add a secondary port b/c I want to be able to read my auto tranny codes.

Thanks Tim, BTW what LED did you use for the MIL?

I have been pretty lucky because Cham lives about 30 miles from me right now.  I have left up all the K-Pro troubleshooting up to him.  When he changed my OBDII port from my Accord ECU to my K-Pro ECU, all he did was create an open on one wire, and re-pin another wire into the K-Pro ECU.  The MIL was just a regular old pre-wired 3mm LED.

Can you get specifics Tim? Like what pin to where? Pretty Please?

Thanks

Wish I could.  Like I said, Cham did all of this.  My only role was to make the wires look neat and to solder and heat shrink connections.  As soon as Cham gets back into town, I will see if he is able to provide some more details.

please do.

figured out the obd2 stuff.  You need to pin the kpro ecu at E23 which is the "KLine" and splice connect it to Pin #7 on the obd2 port.
(http://www.packetradio.co.uk/Cars/octavia/DLC_Pinout.gif)


ALSO I removed the IACV pin from the Kpro and attached the stock ecu's IACV instead. So far it idles nicely but I haven't driven it yet. I did this because its hot in Cali and I need my ac to run right in traffic. This is similar to how the tsx and s2000 have it. BUT if your going to do this too you will need to disable the idle control valve setting in Kmanager, save, and upload the calibration.

There is a better solution to the AC problem though. In the S2000, you can select "use alternate AC output" and from what i understand the kpro will work with the idle up and enrichment like stock for you. The problem is I dont know how the s2000 Hondata harness is wired up.

So, if anyone out there has a friend with a kpro'ed S2000 can you grab some pics of the connections? The ones available online aren't doing it.

Thanks, and rant off!

Ok neo i have that huge problem as well. At idle my A/C blows straight engine air (which can be hot during the summer in the south). Its on the E block of pins just swapping those around and then disable the IACV in kmanager? Maybe i didn't read it right

well you can do this, unplug the Pin on the hondata ecu (A12) on the gray connector. Reconnect that pin to the accord's stock A12 pin. Turn off the IACV in Kmanager. Upload. Let comp do the idle learn, (unplug battery for 5 or so min, reconnect and start the car let idle for about 15min). My car got a little better the more i drove it but sometimes it blows warm air. Its not a perfect fix. you might want to add more fuel in the area of the map where its being used in Kpro. Some TSX guys have had better success with a target lambda of 13.1.

This is because the car tends to run a lil lean with the AC on. I dont think Kpro compensates for that like the stock oem ecu does. I havent tried adding fuel yet But you are turboed so be careful with this stuff.

My tuner and I did that at idle and added fuel. It's hard to compensate because you can't have two maps for "A/C on" and "A/C off" for example. It's fine because it'll keep the engine turning over, but its almost as if the A/C compressor is trying to kick over at idle and can't.

The only side effect is that it runs a little more rich at idle with the A/C off which is no huge deal. Kpro has a hard time compensating at idle and some of the small things in general, such as ignition timing.

Single ECU solution on the way......... Update Friday or Saturday.

That sounds killer Paul. Can't wait for what comes out of your lab.

Yay Paul!

I have the ETM and have been reviewing the AC and Idle schematics. I found out that the ALTF wasn't connected from the stock ecu to the harness. From what i read online, its the charging signal. The stock ecu will be able to compare its ELV(connected) and the charging cycle, ALTF(not connected). Supposedly the ecu compares the two and if there is a difference the stock ecu will activate the iacv, which couldn't be opened because it wasn't connected. I feel that I am so close sometimes but it never seems to work...

Hey Nexson, job opertunity......

(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Blinx/blinx014.jpg)
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Blinx/blinx015.jpg)
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Blinx/blinx016.jpg)
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Blinx/blinx017.jpg)

NICE!!!! RSX Gauge? Where do I sign up lol?

Hey Mike, I figured out the whole AC thing today. Works like stock. The thing is cham didn't have very important AC connections hooked up.

You mention that the fan was blowing hot air right like the AC wasnt engaging or something. Well, its because Cham didn't hook up the fan for the stock ecu.

Also, now it idles up like normal too. Cham also did not connect the Alternator signal to the Stock ecu.

PM me if you want sepecifics. I can probably explain better on the phone if you think my explinations are too vague online.

I wish I knew more about what Cham did with my harness, because my a/c works fine.

x2....dam that would look so hot

is this working with the dbw.

No its Cable

What's going to run your HVAC?

All specifics will be posted Friday or Saturday by Paul or I when its finished. I will say swapping to a Cable TB was cheaper than anticipated. All I needed was a Cable TB and a lil modification. Got a Type-S TB for $70 and sensors for like $40. Not a bad deal at all. Other than that its still running the TSX IM just modified by Paul for the Type-S TB.

Initial impressions of the Cable TB, its incredibly responsive compared to the DBWs hesitation when you hammer it. Ill post pics and vids soon

The RSX ECU and MCU.......

For all intent purposes it will be a Kpro'ed 03 RSX-S, the only functional loss will be TCS, ABS will still function happily.

Sounds like a damn good solution.  Glad you guys got that shit figured out.  I can't wait to come down and check it out some time.

ok.i need someone to help me out with swap of the tb from dbw to cable.im also interested in doing the kpro as well.can someone PM please
im trying to build a all motor as well i have all the internals to build it but i need to swap this out so i can make the kpro work

To do the DBW to cable TB there are a couple things needed.

1) eaither get the throttle cable from a 03-04 accord or like I did you have to shorten the outer casing about 1.5", if I had to do it again I would have just ordered the cable.
2) eaither use the correct intake for the cable TB (including RSX intake) or fab a adaptor and weld it on the existing intake.

The entire conversion to run KPro directly needs the following.

02-03 KPro'ed ECU
02-03 RSX-S engine harness
I used part of a extension harness to make a adaptor for the ECU E connector to the accord body connector
A DPDT relay to drive AC functions
RSX gauge cluster (I got a used rsx dash harness for $50 and took the connectors from that and the stock cluster to make a conversion harness to go from the accord to the RSX cluster)
A dakota digital signal modifier for VSS, the RSX cluster takes it speedo signal from the VSS which on the RSX is mounted near the diff and only pulses 4 times per tire revolution, the TSX and Accord use a counter shaft sensor which pulses at 100 times per revolution (yeah 140mph at idle in 1st gear).

The fuel level sender from a RSX to get proper readings for fuel level in the tank.

Paul, were you able to keep the cruise control when you switched from DBC to DBW?  Did you completely remove the Accord ECU, or did you keep it to run the HVAC?

^Cruise is out for now, but can be put in from the RSX.
The stock Accord ECU is completely out and the RSX-X ecu put in it's place, HVAC is run by the RSX logic and a added relay.

Again at the end of the day this is a Accord with the brain of a 03 RSX-S.

Nice work Paul. I like that you killed off the dual ECU option and went with the single ECU instead. The way Hondata should have done to begin with. Nice work. I may look into this option in the future as opposed to the dual setup. Think it's possible?

Oh it is possible, but like I said way back, this is not nearly as plug and play as the dual ECU and is more costly with the additional wiring and sensors, but in the end is much cleaner looking and operating.

Yea I tried to get that point across too! This isnt the type of setup thats gonna be mailed and plugged in. For myself I decided hell my engine is already at the no return (to stock) point and I dont plan to sell this car anytime soon so I may as well hardwire it in. So this isnt exactly reversible, atleast not easily.

That's fine with me. I have no intentions of ever selling this car. Hence my plans to "paint" my car differently. The cleaner everything runs, the better it is IMO. Besides, I like the idea of one ECU to run my car because it came that way from the factory. No offense to the dual ECU guys. But like I said before, this would be MUCH later on.

paul, im goin to start gathering parts to accomplish in my ride. any additional suggestions or tips before i start the spending spree.

Get the 04-05 TSX IM so you can use a k24a4 TB. Hmm,.. Also get all your parts in the correct year, 02-04 RSX Engine Dash Harness and Gauges so the project will go much smoother for you than it has for me

What's the tally for the cost of everything?  I realize that this isn't a plug and play application, but I wonder if there is any difference in operation from this set up and the dual set up that I am running.  I know your goal was to simplify everything down to one ECU, but do you think the trade off is worth it?  

I know that neither is a "seamless" solution, but it seems that there's a negative stigma about running a dual ECU set up.  I guess I'm wondering what the problem is with the dual ECU set up?  It seems that I'm constantly defending something that works, to people that have never even seen it or used the dual ECU kpro set up.  I'm not knocking what you are doing, but it seems to be a much more elaborate and complicated alternative to run one ECU.  We all know that the more elaborate, the greater chance there is for something to fail.  I can guarantee that if you got in my car, you wouldn't know I was running kpro if I didn't tell you first.

1. Have a real goal
2. Find out what that goal intails (parts labor reality)
3. Check your budget then add 10%-20% to cover BS
4. If 3 is good, move forth, if not see step 1

The biggest knock I have heard form people that have the dual ECU setup is lack of idle control and having to run a 1000-1200 rpm base idle to keep from stalling when running AC or turning the steering wheel or turning on headlights.


Now that I have done this once it can be made pretty plug & play with only about 4-6 splices into the stock wiring. Blinx, your car could easily be returned to stock ops, I left all stock connectors intact.

Just making sure the 03 accord 4cyl auto has a countershaft vss? Is that the gear looking thing on the wheel bearings?

Thank ou so much all that info.i wish you guys lived out here in LA to help me out with this just incase theres any problems.the thing is that there isnt too many people out there that are willing to do the work on our accord so its hard to find someone that is realiable and trust worthy.
but again thank you again

What you said there Paul, I didn't know.

Tim, I really only have a problem with the dual ECU setup because of the dual ECU. I've replaced ECUs before due to failure and its always been one ECU. Throw an extra one into the mix, and it complicates things. I've gotten accustomed to vehicles running a single ECU. A second one is just a curve ball to me and more parts to fail. If I can do what Paul and Bryan did which seems more complicated than a plug and play dual ECU to simplify my life later, I'm going to do it. I guess I'd rather have the difficulty up front instead of later on at an inconvenient time. I hope I explained my thinking.

No, it is the three wire sensor on the front of the transmission, the ones at the wheels are ABS sensors.

...I'm too drunk to be reading this...

I wish I could say the same.

.....same here ^

well....get to it, fuckers!

I think you should get back to boozing it up Skip. I'll booze it up this Friday through Sunday. The occasion? Why the fuck not?

Ehhh.  Fuck it.  I'm not going to bother any more.  Nobody listens to me anyway.

No I understand what your saying Tim, and honestly if Cham had found a way to run Kpro on an a8 I would have been more incline to use the Dual Harness but I didnt wanna drive up to Cham to have this pioneered when my car was at Paul's the last few months anyways! As for the Idle fluxuation with A/C and lights I thought NeoRyan figured a way around that. Something about Cham left some wires unplugged.

But as was previously stated with the Original Flashpro idea, this wasnt for a4 guys to run a single ECU since youve already got the Dual Harness and a Cable TB. The single ECU idea came in after seeing F-Pros release and the single ECU K-Pro came from the fact that half of the a8s sensors were different. The Entire a8 engine harness had to be replaced for this to work, and I know that was no easy task.

Honestly at one point even I thought of getting the MCU from the EP3 and do exactly what you and Paul have done. But I would have taken forever to do it. Somehow I stumbled on how the ECU detects changes in voltage and poof it works.

As for the Idle fluctuation yes it is fixed. AC works like stock. Fans turn on like stock. Lights don't dim. I've put about 500 miles on it and no problems with the alterations yet. The only problem now is the Temp guage is slow to update itself. I'll try to fix that soon.

Ive had the Dual ecu setup for about 2 years now and its still going strong.

I've talked to Cham about the temp gauge, and it reads correctly in kmanager and on my OBDII port, but the gauge on the cluster seems to be slow.  I think it's reading low because the gauge is wired in parallel instead of being wired in series.  I have a feeling that if it was wired in series, the temp gauge would read properly.

:grin:  :roll:

I'm glad there is a solution, but this one would not be for me.

Hey guys. Im not so good at identifying what wires are which but im pretty decent at soldering. I read the first post on the K-pro thread on how to solder up the RSX wideband Sensor to the stock Accord connector, but I purchased an AEM Uego Replacment Sensor which has 5 wires instead of 4. I was wondering if you guys would be able to help me identify which wires on the AEM Sensor goes to which on the Stock connector?

Since most people are running the RSX sensor, I don't think you're going to have much luck here.  You may want to try and get a pin out of the sensor you have.

Is cham still going to work for another solution for the 7.5gens?

I believe he has been kinda busy lately.  I'll ask him when I see him.

None, the RSX sensor is a "Widerange" nd the bosch LSU42 is a "WideBand", they are different sensors and are not compatable.

O wow. Is there any other cheap alternative way to doing this? Im waiting on the Harness Cham made me and Im trying to gather the parts needed before I put the Kpro in my car

I have the caspers adapter harness for the rsx 02 if you decide to go that route. This way you wont have to worry about sodering just plug and play. Brand new never opened let me know.

I really dont mind the soldering but ill let you know if i decide to go that route. Anyone know if the TSX Sensor is the same as the RSX sensor? I heard it might be the same, but with a female connector like the Accord. Any other suggestions?

^Get what is known to work, there is a reason why that sensor is soo damn expensive unfortunatly.

+1  Use the RSX sensor and take Ryan up on the casper harness.  I have no problems with soldering either, but I don't like taking chances with sensitive electrical sensors.  I'm using the casper harness with my car.

lol. cool. Thanks for the input you guys. Ill take your words on the RSX sensor.

hey guys, I just hooked up everything i needed to hook up on the car. I was wondering if i need to do anything with the settings before starting it up? I had to go with the soldering pathway because i received the wrong connector. I read about changing the voltage for the o2 sensor, but i dunno if it was just for the AEM one. please, Im thinking of getting the car running tonight so i can use it in the morning so all help is appreciated. Thanks!

Are you using an AEM primary AFR sensor, or a RSX primary AFR sensor?  Do you have a tune yet?

im using the RSX-S sensor. nope, i was just gonna run off the stock calibration for the Accord thats already on the K-manager.

I wouldn't use that.  The calibration for the Accord in kmanager kinda sucks.  I'm pretty sure that that MAP either runs either really rich or really lean.  Either way, if you're planning on running that, make sure you get your car tuned immediately.  You definitely do not want to drive around on that tune if you don't want to wreck your motor.  Let me know if you need help or a better base map.

i had gotten everything hooked up this weekend and double checked the everything before i plugged in the ECU. Turned on the car, but when i tried datalogging, it wasnt reading anything. I drove it a bit to see if it drove normally, but when i punching the throttle it would keep itself from going over 4000rpm. im thinking its the ECU. I got the  Kpro'd ECU used on CRSX forum so I was thinking of getting it repaired on Ebay if i have to beacause theres a seller that does repairs. Have any suggestions guys?

Which Map are you using?

Not over 4000 rpms, do you have a CEL at all? Limp modes the only thing I could think of other than if that kal accidentally had a rev limit set at 4k.

E-mail a copy of your MAP to the admin e-mail so I can check it out man.

The CEL is always on. Im only using the stock calibration thats on K-pro for the Accord. I didnt touch any of the settings.

Sounds more like a sensor/wiring problem, what code is it......

The Accord CEL is on, or the K Pro CEL is on?  When you use Cham's harness, you're going to get a CEL in your stock gauge cluster because all the sensors it's looking for are going to the K Pro ECU and it's freaking out because it doesn't see them.

If you're using the stock Accord calibration that is on K Manager, you need a better tune.  That tune is not very good, and is only to be used as a starting point while tuning.  You WILL damage your motor if you don't get your car tuned.  Do you need a better tune?

Well. Both the CEL on my stock gauge and the external one are on. Its reading nothing on K-pro, no codes, no datalog. only thing I think I can do is upload maps to the Kpro. Im thinking the ECU is the problem. If its cool timot_one, I can try uploading a better map if you have one and Ill let you know if theres a difference from the map I uploaded. If it still cuts off at 4000rpm, then im sure its the ECU and ill just have to get it repaired on Ebay. Im sure I should see a difference if its not the ECU. Lemme know as soon as you can. Thanks :D

PM me your email address and I'll send you a better n/a tune today.

I was having problems with my Hondata and it wouldnt read A/F or datalog. well I got my Ecu repaired and now Im comin up with a Vtec oil switch malfunction error code. I tried to switch the negative and positive wires on the VTC, but still no luck. Have any of you encountered this before and if so, is there any way to get it taken care of? Thanks

Are you getting the same error code with your stock ECU?  Have you checked the harness to make sure there's continuity from the pin of the kpro side of the harness all the way to the connector in your engine bay.  Also, did you solder the connections or did you use quick connects?

Trace the VTec pressure switch wire, sounds like it is not hooked up. the VTPS is normally closed to ground and opens when the VT solinoid opens and sends oil pressure to the VT system.

I have the wires two wires from the harness hooked up to a connector to the vtc oil pressure valve that I bought at Acura.

hrm... anyone have trouble with chams harness with the A/C? my tuner said the a/c keeps kicking on and off... also the TEMP gauge... the arm on the gauge doesnt go up as high as it would without the kpro..anyone get these problems?


edit: just saw on page 5 about the temp gauge running lower but is normal, however.. my temp gauge does go up eventually and goes right back down when i turn the heat on, does that mean the car is overheating?

My a/c works fine, but I also know that Cham modified my harness after we installed it.  As far as the temperature gauge goes, it reads lower than it should, meaning that the gauge is wrong.  The weird thing is that kpro reads the coolant temp properly.  I have decided to ignore my stock temp gauge and have my coolant temp displayed on an OBDII device I have connected.

You might have the same problem i did. you need to connect the stock ECU to the FanC pin. I posted the fix here somewhere.

Alright. So last week, before I changed back to my stock ecu, I used my multimeter to see if there was currency flowing and it was confirmed there was currency flowing thru the vtc wires to the actual vtc oil pressure switch on the side of the engine. Im really planning on giving up, but I'd rather not. Would any of you be able to help me out on this one? Thanks

So what is wrong with the car when you try to drive it? It doesn't go past 3k rpms? I can't remember.

did you try to clear the code in kpro?
are you low on oil or running thicker oil than 5w20?

My oil level is fine and I always stick with 5w 20
Here are the problems:
-Engine cranks rough when starting or shutting it off.
-Wont allow me to pass 3800rpm
-Ive tried to clear the code on my Kpro, but keeps popping up
-VSS stays at a certain MPH when datalogging (first datalog stayed at 158MPH and 48mph another time.)
-Before I switched back to the Stock ECU, I had problems getting my car to crank. Sometimes, i would have to wait a bit then try to start it again. Didnt feel like the battery was dead cuz it still cranked.

When you say it won't read the a/f or datalog, will it display the values of the other sensors in your display screen?  When was the last time you updated kmanager?  What OS are you running?

With that many sensors not reading right it is no wonder you are having the problems you have, I would go back to basics, start with grounds and make sure the wiring is right.......

Another thing I would do is go thru every sensor and see which are reading correctly and which are not, then you can look at the group that is not reading right for eaither a common ground or ref voltage that is mis-wired. If all the wiring looks good then possible a bad ECU......

My vss doesn't read correctly also. the mph depends on if you checked the box that says "no speed sensor-provide constant speed signal" the harness doesn't have it hooked up.

If your having trouble cranking, your cranking fuel trim should be 60%. While turning the car off the engine will do a quick shake, not smooth like stock. Probably because of the motor mount control unit not hooking up OR your stock ecu is not getting rpm input to adjust for engine vibration OR because the harness shuts off the car a split second before the engine leaving it to run a split second longer and basically disconnecting the battery.

Are you auto or manual? autos automatically shift at 4000rpm no matter how much you mash the throttle.

Lastly what tune are you using?

2 questions:

1. is the civic si primary o2 sensor wide band? i think if we use that, we wont need to solder the ends, i think its a female connector unlike the male connector on the rsx-s

2. with the kpro setup, is the immobilizer disabled?


thanks!

I'm pretty sure you can use the Si primary A/F, but I'm not sure about the connector.  You can get one made by casper electronics, like I have on my car.  I have my immobilizer disabled.

if the immobilizer isn't disabled and you haven't had the ecu a key matched then the car shouldn't even start.

1. It is "Wide Range" not "Wide Band" , google to learn the difference, but both give fairly accurate reading of actual AFR

2. KPro can operate both ways but you will need a dealership or HDS to program in your keys.....

Tim does your Kpro read the correct mph when you datalog?

I remember when first running the SC, the VSS read a constant 144 mph.  I went back and reviewed a few datalogs and they have the correct MPH.

hmm... another sensor i need to hook up... well, at least figuring it out is fun!

hrm... ok so anyone with chams kpro harness having issue with the rpm not passing about 6k?

also have the problem with the vss reading constant, is there something i need to change for that?

oh for the hvac, mine is kinda funky, when i have the ac on, the rpms would plunge every so often to like 300, is that normal?

thanks for any help.

I've had issues with the rpm's not passing 6k, but that was the base map, not the kpro harness.  The VSS reads constant on mine also, but I haven't really changed things around to see if I can get it to work.  My HVAC is also a bit funky like yours, but it doesn't drop to 300 rpms.  It does drop when the compressor clutch kicks in though.

hrm... what you mean its the base map? i tried to get the car tuned and the tuner said the car wont go past 6k even if he sets the fuel cut @ like 10k.

so does that mean like he needs to tune from scratch? (not sure if thats possible) and he said he started with the tsx basemap.

 had the same problems with my old motor when I put the SC on.  We tried switching ECU's, switching the KPro harness, and still had the same problem.  We used a different base map to tune with, and it went past 6k.  Is this a n/a tune?  What bolt ons do you have?  I may have a base map I can send you to start with.

its a N/A tune... but its built k20/k24 engine.... hrm... so what basemap did you use to start with for the tune? maybe i can just use that map and adjust all the parameters to what its at now and see if the engine will go past 6k. (heh i spent over 1g on tuning and i dont wanna dish out more money just to see if it might work =P)

and for your tune... did you set the vss to constant?

and you said that your obd2 reader can tell what the real temp of the coolant is? like an accurate reading? shouldnt the kpro also have an accurate reading of the ECT?

plus does your CEL from the harness actually work? ive hooked up the kpro to a laptop and it would show a error but the light doesnt light up. i dont remember what the error is from exactly but it occurs when my car cranks a little longer than usual to start for some odd ball reason and at the same time, the car doesnt rev past 4k when that happens... when i turn the car off and on, the car runs normal again but the error is still logged, but no light. (kinda redundant but hope it makes sense)

thanks very much for your input

This tune is for a K24A4, n/a.  I don't know what basemap they started with, but the tune I was using raised my redline to about 7800.  I don't remember what the VSS was set to on that tune though.  My OBDII gauge reads from kpro, so the ECT reading is the same on my gauge as it is when I monitor it with kpro.  My CEL on the harness works flawlessly.  I'm not sure what the problem you're having is, but it could be the tune, or it could be the ECU.  One thing that I've done in the past when I have weird problems, is erase the ECU and re-upload the tune.  When I had the problem with my crank position sensor, the code came back after I replaced it.  I erased and re-uploaded my tune, and it worked fine. 

Here were a few problems with my AC:
The pinout for the FANC was not connected. E12 on the accord harness. This allowed the stock computer to turn on the fan when the AC is on.

Your idle is low because your stock ecu doesn't know that it is under load when the AC is on. You need to connect B13 on the stock ecu. This is what the stock ecu uses to determine the engine load. This will help with idle if you have your stock computer controlling your idle. I recommend this if you really care how your car behaves with AC/Idle.
     If you want to let the stock ecu control idle disconnect the IACV pin from the Hondata ECU (A12) and pin that into the stock ecu (A12). Then in your Kmanager under the idle tab, disable the idle control valve.

I've had the same problem with the Engine coolant temp. Mine reads really low because the signal is split amongst 3 sensors. This has caused my auto tranny to go into limp mode and sometimes prevents me from going into 5th. You might want to go on to Kmanager and under the protections tab disable the overheating protection. The main one is the one about set rev limit to 4k rpms when overheat. You might also wanna check what you set the fan temps at because this can fool your kpro into thinking its overheating and applying the rev limit if you had enabled it.

let me know if you need help. Maybe we should make a sticky letting people know what things to connect or trouble shooting for the kpro and the accord.

That's a fantastic idea Ryan.

Niiiiiiiiice writing

Just FWIW, as of a few months ago, Hondata no longer offers KPro for the TSX  ???

http://www.hondata.com/kpro.html

Kinda funny how it looks like the harness is backwards in the picture.  Anyway, that's a huge bummer. 

Well that certainly puts a damper on my getting the harness and re-pinning it for my setup later on down the road.

There are other options Z.  Trust me.

Noted.

I read the guide here. Read a couple of threads open. But I want more info.

I'm interested in gettin a chip from hondata but don't know which one is right for my 05 accord auto.

I also want to know what are the gains of having k-pro? I think I know a couple but nothing concrete.

Thanks guys

I think the general consensus was that if you're not building your motor, or not getting forced induction, you should stick with the stock ECU. I have an 05 accord auto as well, and have some bolt-ons, but don't plan on getting kpro because the gains don't justify the cost.

Perfectly said, thanks. I was wondering abt that

You could have posted your question in an existing thread.  Please don't create a new thread when there is already a thread that covers the topic.  There is no reason to have multiple threads on the same topic.  In the end, having multiple threads just creates clutter and confusion.  I'm merging your thread with the existing K-Pro thread.  Please continue to post any questions you may have in the existing K-Pro thread instead of creating a new thread.

Interesting thing I did. I have an auto with Kpro. Ive always noticed the temp gauge in the cluster to be slow and only read about 1/3 of the range.

I made a thread a while ago about my transmission not going into 5th gear. I found out the reason. Its due to the Engine Coolant Temperature sensor(ECT). 03-04 accords only have one ECT sensor and that signal has to be split up in order for the two ECUs to function. This lowers the voltage and messes up the info. Splitting the signal effectively lowers the perceived temperature.

This lowering of the temp causes 1) the temp gauge to not indicate proper temp 2) Prevents the auto transmission from shifting to 5th and locking the torque converter 3) the Kpro is constantly trying to enrichen the mixture b/c it still thinks its warming up.

I added an ECT sensor inline with the IACV hoses. It was done with a brass T fitting. And I used the outputs from the sensor and pinned them to B6(ECT) of the Kproed ecu and A23(SG2) of the stock ECU. Now the temp gauge acts like normal! and the car goes into 5th and shifts better! Kpro also registers the proper temp of around 195 degrees instead of the original 165.

I hope this helps, maybe it'll work for MT accords too.

I had a conversation with Cham about this also.  The way he has it wired is that the sensor is wired in parallel, reducing the voltage like Ryan said.  I looked at the wiring for the sensor, and there's no way to wire the 2 ecu's in series to the one sensor.  I may get a 2nd sensor to use also.  My ECT usually sits at about 154º under normal driving.

Yeah at the 150 ish it sometimes will try to add excess fuel. If you get another sensor the temp will tell the kpro that its warm. I think it'll make for more consistent performance. I know if I go downhill my ECT drops dramatically to as low as 120. Im pretty sure the Kpro tries to do the cold enrichment even tho the engine is warm. This makes the A/F slightly richer sometimes I get a hesitation when I get on the gas with my SC tune due to the fuel dump. You might earn some MPG! But this is just a guess I haven't been in my normal routine, so I'm not sure if this would help in that situation.

As a note if you are going to do this:
1) Plug the ECT+T-Fitting into the IACV
2) Run the Engine without the ECT hooked up the ECU yet, Bleed coolant.
3) Turn off engine then wire up the new ECT
4) Perform Idle learn after car has cooled down.

Make sure that none of the IACV hoses aren't leaking and you have bled the system. An air bubble can be caught around the sensor otherwise. This WILL throw a code. Most likely ECT High Voltage and your car won't start. The ECT reads water not air temp.

Sorry, I've been studying for my Zoology midterms and needed a break.

I just thought about it some more, and because I have a PLX OBDII gauge connected to my KPro ECU, I really don't need to use the gauge in my cluster.  I never pay attention to that one anyway and always read from my PLX gauge.  I may just cut the wires going to the Accord ECU since I really don't need that gauge to work.  I'm going to have a new harness built with these changes.

Yeah that would work too. I want to get a new harness too, mine is pretty hacked up but I don't have the ability to run w/o it anymore.

I need to get Cham's secrets and start helping him.  I could probably build a harness a day if I had the parts.

Yeah, its not too hard. Its just tedious. I talked to boomslang a few years ago and he did mention he can sell me the parts to make my own harness. I don't know how much or if they do this anymore.

I know the difficult part is sourcing parts.

Hey Tim,  when you did your engine swap, did you swap your ECU as well, or are you still running on an Accord ECU?

He's running dual ECU. The Accord is working the guages and all that miscellaneous shit while the other ECU (I can't remember if its an RSX ECU or what) is running the engine.

^What he said.  I have the Accord ECU for my stock gauge cluster and HVAC, and an EP3 ECU with KPro to control my motor.

Thanks.  Did you lose cruise control, VSA, or anything?

I don't have VSA.  My cruise control functions properly.  Don't forget that I still have a cable tb, not dbw.

I haven't forgotten.  :)

I have a real question I'm leading to...  but I've asked it before, and I can't remember what it is.  :( 

My guess is that you want kpro for your TSX, and now that Hondata doesn't sell their harness any more, you want to see if an Accord harness will work.

Out of curiosity, regarding Kpro an the a8... I know that the dbw setup is a problem when it comes to installing kpro, but would it be possible to swap to a dbc setup and run kpro that way? I haven't been able to find an answer anywhere( maybe I just haven't used the right keywords?) But I'm more than willing to get rid of the dbw system if it means I can have Kpro. Any advice?

Yes.  It's been done on 2 K24A8 with head swaps.  You swap the engine harness, swap the gauge cluster with a RSX Type S cluster, make a few modifications for the HVAC, and you can run K Pro with a DBC TB.

another thing to note is that your stock cluster would be needed to make a custom harness for the the rsx cluster, which you would need a dash harness as well. ive been running this setup for about 8 months with great results. i did lose my cruise control but that can be fixed with a few additional parts.

Thanks for the info David.  I wasn't aware of the loos of CC.  I did know about the harness for the RSX cluster, but I forgot about that aspect when I posted. 

And one of the two that Tim was talking about has spoken up. I can't believe its been this long since you did the swap Dave.

same here, ive got other plans to keep it going but cant finance it yet.

I know the feeling.

Hey everyone
I havent been on here in awhile. I was wondering if anyone has or knows someone who has a base map or calibration for a turbo setup they can let me use, those of you with Kpro. I have an 05 Accord with K24A4, stock internals. Ill be putting these parts on my car sometime in February and am in need of a basic tune to get me to a DYNO shop. Most likely Bisimoto. Heres a list of the parts that ill be putting.

-Hondata Kpro 02 -04 RSX-S
-Cham custom Split Harness
-750cc RC Injectors
-HKS GT2835/GT3071 w/ T3 turbine
-Walbro 255lph fuel pump
-Rev Hard Manifold
-Rev Hard downpipe
-Tial 38mm wastgate
-Godspeed same side in/out FMIC
-Custom IC piping HKS BOV
-Vibrant 3" Exhaust with Ultraquiet resonator
-04 TSX intake Manifold
-Hondata boost solenoid

Please, any help will be appreciated. Thanks!

I'd look in the available tunes in k manager first, but if you can't find anything there, you can always look around on forums like k20, the hondata forum, or even crsx.  You can get a hold of ryans7thgen since he just boosted his motor with stock internals.

...You're good man. 

Thankfully, a company from Toronto stepped up to offer something.  http://www.k-tuned.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=20&products_id=207 (http://www.k-tuned.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=20&products_id=207)

They haven't started mass producing yet, and if the TSX community doesn't bite, I'm afraid they may pull this off before I gather enough funds :( 

I've already talked to Mike at K-Tuned about this.  I was under the impression that it is already being sold.

Hi I have a CM5 with 5AT tranny. If I go KPro and upped the rev limit to say 7800rpm, will the tranny be able to shift at 7800rpm or will it continue to upshift at 6500rpm?

Ummm, your motor won't handle a 7800 rpm redline.  My K24A2 doesn't even rev that high.  Why on earth would you even want to rev that high on a stock K24A4?  The head doesn't flow well enough to make power that high.  You'll actually be losing power and destroying your motor.

coz' il be getting the skunk2 stage2 cams and improved valvetrain  ;)

Okay, go ahead and do that then.  Let us know how it turns out.

my question now is will the slushbox attempt to shift at 6500rpm even at WOT? or will it allow a higher rev?

Not sure.  Like I said.  Give it a try and see how it works out.

the kit costs $1820 in K-tuned.com, and it will be about $2000 landed in my place, so I can't really afford to just try it out. will prolly wait for people who did real installs and some feedback.

Your best bet is to talk to neoryan.  He has an AT and is using KPro.  I still wouldn't redline your car that high.  Even with the upgraded valvetrain, you'll be running the risk of oil starvation with your Accord oil pump.  It would be a smart idea to swap your oil pump with a K20A2 oil pump so you can rev your motor higher.  At the same time, you'd probably want to have your head ported since the K24A4 head doesn't flow very well.

Tim what is your closed loop threshold set at? Mine was at a default of 87kpa but sometimes it would stay in closed loop and sometimes it would be in open even though its the same throttle positions. My columns 7 and 8 can read 14.7 or 13.2 with the same load, I'm trying to make it have consistent fueling.

I have mine set to 87 kpa.  I was looking through a few base maps in K Manager and the map Hondata has for a CTSC on a TSX and the closed loop threshold is set to 80 kpa, but the Hondata map for a JRSC on a TSX is set to 87 kpa.  Weird.

Yeah I might try to set it at 80 kpa because at that point its under high NA load and should be in open loop. This is the area that needs more fueling. My datalogs show open/closed in rapid oscillation and I don't want to run it leaner than it should. Have you checked out the new updates on Kmanager? I havent downloaded it since its only a beta version but the changes bring it up to Fpro standard.  

I think the ctsc one might be a little better because it is on doug's personal car and he probably has spent good time/effort in tuning it. I dont know who tuned the other Kal tho.

I'm not sure who did the JRSC tune, but I know it was in an EP3 that made 325 whp with the same motor set up I have.  I haven't had that problem with my car though and my threshold is set to 87 kpa. 

Anyone ever have a problem with their car passing 4000rpm w/ Kpro? I had this problem before when my car was N/A but when I disabled the VTC on Kpro, everything was fine and went passed 4000. Im currently running a turbo setup with Cham's Jumper Harness and now I seem to have run into the same problem. I went to take it to Church Automotive to see if Daniel, the guy that will do my dyno could figure out the problem. What he did was datalog to see if all the sensors were workin and found that when Kpro gave me P1259 Vtec Oil Pressure Switch Malfunction code, that the CAM and CAMCMD angles went to 0 degrees. He cleared the error code, revved the car passed 4000rpm and the Cam angles went to where they should be reading. 10sec later, code comes on again, Cam angles go back to 0, Rpm drops and bounce off 4000. If any of you have had this problem or know of this, Please let me know if you guys can help a brotha out. Ive been wanting to dyno this beast for a couple weeks now, but if the problem keeps persisting then Im just gonna have to take everything out. Also, How do you get the A/C to blow cold air again. I know I have to wire up a switch but to what? dying with this hot weather comin in. Please, any help will be greatly appreciated. Thank you
 05 Accord M/T
-02-04 PND Kpro w/ Cham Harness
-Revhard Manifold w/ Tial 38mm WG, 7lb spring
-Hondata Boost Solenoid
-Garrett Gt3071r
-750cc RC Injectors
-255lph Walbro Fuel Pump
-Custom crushed 3" Exhaust
-Custom IC piping with Godspeed Intercooler

I had a similar problem a long time ago with my old motor and  it wouldn't rev past 6000 rpm, but when I switched to a different map it was resolved.  I also had an issue with my vtec solenoid a while ago too.  I'd try replacing the pressure switch on your vtec solenoid.  I have a few lying around if you need one.  It may take me a while to find them since I just moved all my stuff about 900 miles and I'm still unpacking.

I actually just ordered the K-tuned harness so I gotta wait til next week when it comes in. When should the pressure switch be changed out? I have about 120k miles on the car.

Replace as necessary. Those things aren't mileage specific.

:stupid:

I have a question, is the only reason we have to use a dual ecu harness, or Tims setup for Kpro is because the cluster would not work?

I ask because I plan to swap in a k24a2, now would it be easier to just swap the clusters and or use the tsx harness in conjuntion with a setup like that? The dimensions on the clusters would be close if not the same I would think. I'm planning on picking up the motor out of a rear wrecked tsx from a local auto yard. Motor sounds great and the car drives well minus being smashed in the rear (from the videos anyways.) So I guess my question is should I grab the harness, cluster, and ecu while i'm at it?

That stuff won't really make a difference. You can't KPro a TSX ECU. Another issue is that the TSX has a DBW TB.

Honestly, I'd grab the motor and the harness. I don't think you'll be able to use the cluster and ECU for anything though.

even the harness will be useless, you will need the engine harness, dash harness, gauges, kpro'ed ecu and throttle body from a rsx-s.

or you could just buy my honda that has all that work done and some more for what you would end up spending to have all that done.