EliteCM.net

I tried calling honda the past few days in regards to the car keys. I'm to understand that there is a chip in the key that starts the car, the car reads the chip and yada yada yada. My question is if I swap out the a4 motor for the a8 motor would that effect the car/key in any way or is it only the ignition that is read not the motor and ecu?

I would imigine that the communitcation is done with the ECU.

I'm pretty sure it has to do with the ECU.  Why are you going to swap in an A8 in place of an A4?  For all the trouble you're going through to swap motors, there are better upgrades.

do an a4 to an a2 swap... then you can get some really nice gains... :D

I'm sorry guys that was a typo. I'm swapping out the a8 for an a2. The main reason for my idea was the a4 is readily available fair price and most important has been tuned. I thought about the a2 but I would rather build a cheap motor then build a 2k motor. I spoke with some guys at honda and they all pretty much said it would not effect the key and start up. I figured I would ask the guys here. I have seen all these frank motors and what not and no one ever mentioned anything about the keys or anything. As of right now I'm getting all the part's for the build just wanted to square away the motor/swap side of it.

What do you mean the motor has been tuned?  You do realize that the K24A4 has less power than the K24A8, right?  Are you building a motor, or are you just swapping motors?  Your posts are kind of confusing and really don't make much sense because your information is not consistent and extremely vague.  I understand the whole key issue, but I'm not really sure what you're trying to do with the motors.  Why don't you just tell us what you're planning on doing so we have a better idea?

Sorry about that. I do know the a4 has less power then the a8. I and the shop who will be doing the work came up with 3 possibilities for the build. This might be a bit lengthy. These are the 3 options we came up with. The reason I asked about the key is because 2 of the choices entitled a motor swap. I have seen swaps done in 7th gens but no one has ever said anything about the chipped key. I was able to grab a hold of someone at honda today and they pretty much said it was the ignition and not the ecu. Either way I figured I would seek the help from the community. So here where the options.

1-Stick with the a8 and try to figure a way to tune the motor. No one has been able to crack the code to tune the motor. Hondata came out with a new system for the TSX that can control DBW and the auto trans. It's a duel adapter harness. I'm sure many of you have seen it if you check out their site. They said this could possibly work IF they where able to get it to work with my ECU.

2-Swap out the a8 for an a4 motor. Yes the motor has less power but it's going to be boosted so there is no real concern about the power loss there. Many people have swapped the a4 into other cars and the a4 motor has been tuned for aftermarket performance. This option was one of their higher choices just because they are easy to find and cheap. Not to mention they have worked on a few a4's already.

3-Swap out the a8 for an a2. This option can allow them to use the new tuning method from hondata, and give me a little more hp starting out also. This I would pretty much just have an accord body with a TSX guts.

The goal is ball park 230-250whp just a little something fun to drive around it. I sacrificing power because I'm going with price and reliability. I will be building the bottom end to handle the power and beefing up the auto trans(B&M trans cooler included). Everything is pretty much accounted for however the shop recently called and suggested one of the 3 ideas. they said they are willing to work with the a8 but as time passed they said they might suggest another motor as a platform. So the key question came about over the swap ordeal. First they said no problem did a little reasearch and now they are willing to try but suggest an alternative.

i suggest you either get a k24a4 + headswap + rsx-s oil pump +high compression piston + hondata + good tune, or if you have enough money just get the TSX motor + bolt on + hondata and a good tune. You can break 250whp easy.

I would suggest the k24a2 because of the oil squirter and it has better bearings.

It all depends on how much money you can put in and how much down time you can afford.

Ok..nobody post right now....I'm writing a novel on this argument that will be the knowledge bomb equivalent of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

Blk good to see ya here man!.... post deleted for Skip's novel!

As for the a8 making more power than the a4 Ive heards theres two main reasons and thats the differences in the manifold designs and slightly revised camshaft designs. Although the a8 pistons may be different they still have the same compression ratio as the a4s. Obviously tuning is slightly revised as well.

Thanks Blinx. I noticed most of the same people here as on the original gen 7 forum. Thanks that was pretty much my question answered in a nutshell lol. I was really considering the a2 swap mainly because it would be so much easier to get hondata up and running since they make a application for the a2. How do you deal with that since you went the frank route? Take your key to honda and have them sink it up?

Skipp...go easy lol I'm still recovering from the rant a year or so ago on k-pro lol

Run for cover fuckers.  (http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0233.gif)

Are you planning on switching from a DBW throttle body to a cable driven throttle body? Each time you post, something new comes to light.  We can't really help you if you don't tell us what your plans are.  Withholding information will only make this more difficult for us to help you.  The people that can help you will lose interest and not bother helping you if you're a pain in the ass about it.

thought I covered it...The reasoning was to lose the DBW yes. The shop was willing to try they where just trying to eliminate any issues with the motor resisting the tune. that is why they suggested the a2/a4 motors because both have been performance tuned and have applications on the market that can tune them. Hondata being the application for the a2.

I didnt know anyone saw my reply I deleted it pretty soon but all good,.. the only reason I havent said anything about using the Fpro application is because your AT. Other than that Id go with the a2 swap/frank build and use the TSX dual harness since its DBW anyways. Not sure how much else I can help on this though :-/

So, get a cable driven TB and run the new throttle cables.  I'm not sure if you have to replace the pedal also.  Have you considered that option?  I don't see why you shouldn't be able to run the dual ECU harness that Cham makes for us and run your car on kpro.  Where do you live?  Maybe Cham can help you with this.  I realize that it's more complicated than that, but probably less trouble than a motor swap.

I live in Baltimore Co. I emaile Cham a while ago I know he's a pretty busy guy, but if he could get his harness to work on my motor that would be great. I did read a thredd saying he would be willing to try it out on the a8 motor, so I sent him an email and will see what he says when he gets around to it. I to be honest did not think of that option...that will be something I will look into a little deeper. Thanks for all the suggestions guys, once I get this things going I'll be sure to post up some pics and details of how it all turns out.

Blinx, the shop just called and suggested the same thing lol

Here’s the post you’ve been waiting for.

The idea that your car is un-tunable is irrelevant to a motor swap.  We have a member currently involved in testing the new Hondata F-Pro system to see if it is compatible with the K24a8…whether it works or not..that’s a different story.

First let me dispel the idea that the K24a4 is the motor to go with.  A measly 5 horsepower difference exists between the two motors, and it’s relatively insignificant.  If it were a difference of 10hp or more then I’d say maybe reconsider…but we’re talking about motors that are very similar in construction and function.  Swapping a motor is usually done to get more power out of the gate…you will not get this with a K24a4.

The reason you are being driven towards this swap is because the people you are asking have too little insight into the Accord’s technical makeup.

Secondly, swapping to any other motor will not solve the ETC problem.  You need to eliminate the ETC system before any kind of motor swap in order to gain any headway.  With this having been said, I suggest a K24a2 (1st gen TSX).  You will develop more power out of the gate and you can boost it higher on top of that.  Properly tuned, a stock K24a2 should make somewhere around 220-235whp.  That’s already almost 100hp over what the stock Accord motor makes.  

The TSX motor also uses ETC, but I recommend converting to a cable actuated throttle body and related hardware.  I recommend shying away from attempting to use the hondata TSX Kpro kit because they’ll laugh in your face when you ask for the harness pinouts so you can make the necessary changes to alter the harness to work with your vehicle.  Instead, convert the vehicle to non ETC, then buy one of Cham’s harnesses and a Kpro.  

My suggested plan of action is such.  First, swap to a TSX 6 speed manual transmission.  I won’t go into why you should do so….everybody gets butt-hurt when I place my “go MT or go home” argument.  After you’ve done that, then purchase the necessary parts to convert your vehicle to non ETC operation.  This will include an older Accord ECU, 03-04 Accord accelerator pedal, engine harness, 03-04 Throttle body, intake manifold of your choice (Accord if you want cheap, TSX if you want a little more power out of the gate) cables, and a cruise control unit if you wish to have cruise control.  You can pick all of these items up used from a salvage car…you do not need any brand new parts.  After the car is converted for non ETC use, convert the car for use with Kpro.  You will need a Kpro, Cham’s dual ECU harness, and an RSX-S primary A/F sensor with a casper electronics conversion harness.

After the Kpro is in and you are running the car, make sure all the bugs are worked out.  After all the bugs are worked out, purchase a TSX longblock and swap away.  This will get you exactly what you want.  After the new motor is in, turbocharge and tune away.

To answer your actual question about keys, it’s not as simple as “yes or no”.  You will need to do a few things related to that particular sub-system.  You will need to have your immobilizer re-keyed when you swap over to a K24a4 ECU because your immobilizer will not be able to be deactivated.  After you swap to Kpro, you have the option of disabling the immobilizer or retaining its function, though you will need to have it reprogrammed a second time if you wish to use the immobilizer.

This entire project will run you upwards of $15,000.  I would suggest purchasing a civic or integra, gut it, and insert a fully built K24/K20 with a turbocharger the size of Paris Hilton's Vagina.  Timmy won the contest of what I should put in the underlined space, I would have chosen something like "the size of Manhattan"...either way i needed an object horrendously large and vulgar to put into that sentence..and Timmy hit the nail on the head.

yes the key should still work. I believe that the iginition module is what senses the key when you put it in the ignition. so if you swap motors the key will still work

Well, you're half right..The Immobilizer senses the key when you try to start the motor.  If he swaps motors, it is true that the car will still START with the K24a8 computer...but the ECU will not run any other motor than a K24a8, so he will need some sort of an ECU swap along with the motor, at which time, he will need to have his immobilizer re-keyed by a honda dealer.

Skipp you never disappoint. I swear I'm almost at the point to pm you my build idea and have you review it lol. I liked the teg/civic idea lol. That is the main reason why I kick myself every day for selling my old 96 accord..damn I miss that car. Kinda miss the speed 6 too but not as much.

So in short let me make sure I'm clear on this. If I swap the motor the car will start HOWEVER and this goes w/o saying the ecu would be swapped as well and then at that point the key would have to be re-chipped so to speak? Assuming the member pioneering the a8 tune works this entire key question would go out the window because the motor could be tuned AND there would be no issues at all. Thanks for all the info and help guys.

The immobilizer system works on a set of reprogrammable keys and a receiver ring located directly in front of the lock cylinder.  When the key is inserted, the lock cylinder applies a small amount of voltage to the key blade which energizes the chip capsule inside the key body.  The key sends its unique passkey to the receiver ring and it is registered by the immobilizer system.  If the code is wrong, or the key is not programmed, the car will crank but will fail to start.  When you change ECU's, the passkey stored inside the ECU will be for a key different than the one you use to start your vehicle (it will be for the key used to start whatever vehicle the ECU came out of), and therefore, if you put any other ECU into your vehicle, your car will not start.  You need to have the immobilizer reprogrammed by honda (it's simple and takes less than 10 minutes) using their HDS tablet PC.  If you swap motors, you will not be able to use your stock ECU because it was designed to run with the K24a8 and not any other motor.  You will either need to swap to the ECU of the engine you are swapping in, or just run Kpro from day 1 and disable the immobilizer.

hmmm,.. good info, didn't know the stock ecu wouldn't run another engine at all, or do u mean without tuning?

There are several technical constraints that you would be under.  This will be very confusing to explain since there are so many intricate things to discuss.  It's all in my head and I've gone through the logic...if I try to explain it it will mess with your head.

Basically speaking, there's no way around the ETC system and you must swap out the ECU and engine harness in order to run a different motor.  The K24a8 uses a MAP and a MAF, which makes the engine harness pinout different than the K24a4's, therefore, the harness and ECU both need to go.  Simply swapping to a K24a4 ECU is not enough..it will not work correctly.  On top of that, the K24a8 does not feature an IACV, nor a TPS (which is present on all non-electronic throttle-bodies and absent on most ETC throttle-bodies)...that's just another reason that the harness needs to go.

The end-all-be-all of this argument is simple.  In order to swap an engine into a K24a8 equipped Accord, you need a k24a4 engine harness, computer, and all necessary parts to convert the vehicle to non-ETC operation.  Going into the possibilities of running a different motor on the K24a8 ECU is a pointless discussion because the 7.5 gen accord was ruined by all of the modifications they made to a perfectly good system.  Converting to the older technology will permit the OP to swap to any motor he wishes and utilize the ONLY known 100% compatible EMS on the market...that is..until you miraculously declare that F-Pro works with k24a8's...in which case all of what I just said may be disregarded...in fact, I'm going to PM you my phone number so you can physically get in touch with me when you attempt to hook your car up to the F-Pro EMS...I want to hear exactly what happens when you try to tune a K24a8 with an F-Pro EMS.

Hahah I appreciate the vote of confidence Skip:P but if in fact Fpro is a lost cause converting a kpro to run on a a8 as Tim said should be simply converting the ETC signal to the kproed ECU. Additionally you prolly wouldnt have to include an a4 engine harness you might be able to just use the sensors that are the same between the a4 and a8s and repin the a8 ECU connection on the Kpro harness. Im not familiar with Kmanager but does it have a MAF sensor option? Prolly wont matter sense its not running the engine anyways.

As for Honda messing with a perfectly good system I look at it like this. The basic Accord owner rarely tunes his car and the fact that they made a sensor switch between the two is annoying but I figure they thought it wasnt going to hurt their product to include some of their newer generation tech. I do think it presented a problem for RSX/S and 06+ Civic Si owners  because they are more frequently modified.

I've updated the thread title so it's not as vague.  I've also moved this to the appropriate forum since it's more of an ECU question than a motor question.

Going back over what you've said, it looks like your goals are to make more power while not getting ass raped by the cost of it all.  Mechanically, it's possible to bolt on a SC or a Turbo if you want to go FI, or to build the motor if you want to go NA.  Your problem is a tuning problem.  You can use a piggy back EMS, but we all know they aren't as good as using a Hondata product.  It seems like you have been given some bad advice from the shop you went to earlier, so I would actually recommend that you not go back there.  I would also recommend that you wait until Bryan and Paul figure out if their F-Pro solution is a suitable and then move forward from there.  Swapping the motor is an over complicated task and an unnecessary expense.

Your dead on in your assumption. I have thought about the build or what ever you want to call it for about a year now gaining information and what not. As far as my goals and so forth I have all that together and my AFI k-series kit came in last week so I'm set on that end. The shop I'll vouch for. I have seen some of the stuff they put out and what hey can do these guy are just sick. I was talking to the guy the other day and he said they just finished working on a new Si. He said they where thinking they might try the FI/C and see what that can do. I pm'ed Bryan and he said he would keep me up to date on the process. However would his system even work being his is franked?

I wouldn't waste time or money with the FIC if you can use either K-Pro or F-Pro.  I can guarantee that if you had two identical builds, the only difference being one was running the FIC and the other was running K-Pro/F-Pro, that the FIC would be making less power.

Blk to be honest, I really want you to try Fpro and see how that works but Ive got no idea how thatll react on an AT and like Tim said your definately gonna get more power with a Hondata product. So if you wanna try it its just a matter of how long your willing to have your car down for R&D. btw U got PM

I would like to be able to use a hondata product believe me! THe only thing I have seen that they have that MIGHT work is the dual adapter harness for the TSX. I have a few things I'm taking a look into, either way the car is going to be done for a while but since I work so close to where I live I should be able to make it happen lol.

It will be next to impossible to get the hondata TSX harness to work on your vehicle unless hondata does the R&D to convert it for you.  The only way you'd be able to modify it yourself is if you had the pinout for the harness and it would be a chilly day in hell before they gave that information up.  There are probably a few wires in there that don't match up, added to the fact that the K24a8 uses a MAF and the TSX does not, therefore some wires would need to be added/subtracted/swapped.  You're better off trying to contact hondata to see if R&D would be possible.  Just be warned, we have not received much more than negative comments from them.  Their customer service staff does not sound nice on the phone, and their hotline basically treats you like a retard to make sure that you've called the president of Iran before trying to call them for help.  I understand they must get a lot of dumb calls and stuff like that, but they really don't need to be as negative as they are.

I would wait to see if Paul's Flashpro endevor works out..if so, it will probably be the cleanest and most efficient solution for your application.  If you do wish to go Kpro, I have developed an independent solution that I have great confidence in.

Well Skippy lets hear it. I'm open to any and all options out there. This project will be completed lol so any turning info you want to share or have a thought on lets hear it no need to hold out lol.

On top of what Skippy said, Cham may have found a K24A8 to work on to see if his K-Pro harness will work.  Hopefully he will be able to get that to work.  This site was created to share information to help other people.  I know Skippy well enough to call him a close friend.  I know he goes out of his way to help other people and does not withhold information.

Yea I was told to try and talk to Cham. I sent him an email but I know how busy he is so I'm expecting something back in a few months or so no worries rather do it right the first time then 5 times to get it right. I was kidding about Skippy, from the old forum he has given me more information then I know what to do with, I know if he has something that could even be a possibility he would be more then willing to share. We are all here to share and help out and I would expect nothing but from users here.