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I don't care if you a dem, rep, conservative, liberal, independant, this is a really scary situation that is being proposed.

Now we may not agree with the executives of AIG getting thier "contracted" bonuses, that is not the issue here. What is the issue is the propsed government response being forwarded by Chuck U Shumer, Chris Dodd, Harry Ried and Barney Frank. Now right or wrong the AIG executives recieved thier $165 million in bonuses that was in thier legally binding contract. Now for the scary part, this group of lawmakers has proposed "taking" or in my opinon "stealing" this money from these executives by creating a tax at 91% to penalize this group of people who LEGALLY recieved these funds. This would set a really scary president in that now the government can retroactively just TAKE/STEAL money from private citizens as they see fit. Lets be clear, although morally we may not agree with these execs recieving this money, there was nothing legally wrong with it , in fact it would have been illegal for them not to recive the money.

So how does everyone feel about the government being able to raid your individual pocket whenever they feel like it......



Please do not turn this into a debate about weather it was right for the AIG execs to recieve the bonuses, that is not the issue here, what is the issue is the government response and the president this would set in government use of power to attack private citizens.....

Of course it's not right for the government to come and take your money but, it's not right to take a bonus when your company is in the shitter either. The government is wrong but, the individuals are wrong to except the money contracted or not.

I think the people have forced the governments hand in this case. AIG cried for bailout for a very long time, and then used it as a bonus when it finally arrived, instead of restructuring their company which was its primary intention to begin with. I know this thread is about the government's erratic move and not the justification of where our tax dollars are going, but let's put this into perspective.

Let's say your boss tells you that you won't be getting a sales commission this year because your co-worker is failing miserably in life and needs help. In efforts to keep your job, you agree to pass your bonus on to someone who needs it. Then you get word that this person blew the money in alcohol and drugs and other avarice. You would demand your money back by any means necessary.

Well it's a similar case in the AIG situation, only at a grander scale. We're having to witness the government doing things never seen or heard of before, just to achieve justice. It's a sad situation, and I am leery of the government myself. However in this case exclusively, I am glad to see some type of common sense being applied. It appears this quality is in extreme scarcity nowadays.

Its going to be next to impossible to keep this from turning into a convo about AIG handing out bonuses, so ill say this.

The gov't is wrong

AIG is wrong

If we allow them to do this "in this case exclusively" we have given the the right to do it anytime they want in the future, you can't have it both ways.

That's pretty fucked up.  It makes me uncomfortable that the government is trying to do that, regardless of moral reasons.

I guess to put it the short way. When the government gave them the money for that bail out they should have made stipulations to dictate what the money could be used for insted of assuming that AIG would do the responsible thing. I would venture to say that we all agree on both fronts.

1. AIG shouldn't have used tax payer dollars to pay bonuses
2. The government made the mistake, and shouldn't be able to go after it by createing a special tax.

AIG should have made their intentions about the bailout money known to the government before they accepted it.  and the government shouldn't have rushed into giving them the bailout money without knowing what AIG was going to do.  I disagree that AIG should have been allowed to do it, and i definitely disagree that the government should be able to "tax" the money away from them.  however, the government moved to quickly to bail out AIG because of who they are.

Brian, if we let the government tax it away "STEAL" this money from them what is then to stop them from doing it to you or me. If this president is set it would then give them the ability to "Go After" any private citizen for any reason they wish to come up with.



Also there originally was a provision in the bill to stop bonuses like this that was removed by Chris Dodd.

Stipulations were in the original bill, Chris Dodd removed them before the final version was sent out. AIG was legally obligated to pay these bonuses under the existing employment contracts with these people.

Correct but, the US government could regulate that the funds given to them in the "Bailout" not be used for these purposes. If your company is making no money you should get no bonus!

Do I agree with either entity? No. Do I think that at this height of progression the government is doing what needs to be done to prevent further economic catastrophe? Yes. It's a catch 22 no matter how you look at it. Bottom line, desperate times call for desperate measures. The bad part of it is that we haven't see the worst of it yet. All this is merely a prelude to what's to come. We need to either buckle up tight or move to Canada.

I like canada eh.

I agree that the govt is looking pretty damn shady in this situation but honestly lets think about how you would feel if the government hadn't stepped in and done something about this. You'd be complaining about how this bailout isn't helping because the government isn't regulating what companies are spending their bailout money on. As people have said AIG is wrong and so is the government. They shouldn't have been so eager to pass this bill and put some damn stipulations on the spending, then again putting together oversight committees takes time too and Americans are losing their jobs and homes. Kind of in a Catch 22. Bottom line is AIG should have had some God Damned morals and spent that money correctly!  BTW JT, I liked your example.

It's not going to pass...if anything the US government is going to take AIG (not the execs) to court

Ok, but how do you feel about your government first allowing this mess to happen by striking the clause that would have prevented this, then trying to use this to increase thier powers to sieze the assests of a private citizen.

That's how it works at my job.  No bonus for me any time soon.


I'm not always up on everything that's going on, so the facts are cloudy.  Did they have any sort of clause saying how the money was spent or that it could not be used for such bonuses?  Shame on the government for making the mistake in the first place and protecting where the money went.  It's even worse that they're trying to take the money back when they could have stopped this from happening in the first place.

Yes, it's sad and fucked up.  I agree with you Paul.  It's not about the money at this point, and it's not an argument of how AIG used the bail out money or the fact that the government gave them the money.  The real issue is that the government is trying to change the rules after the fact and basically steal money back.  Fucking pirates.

Yea IDK bout the whole government being fuckin pirates. But your absolutely right about the government should have watched where the money was going and put in clauses to prevent this but these are isolated incidents and I dont think this has anything to do with the government overstepping its bounds I think it has to do with them giving Big Business Execs too much credit and getting burned for it in the end. AND! Taking a second burn from people like you all saying theyre doing the wrong thing trying to correct their actions getting tax payers money back! Either way! I full believe the government should continue what theyre doing and in the future start regulating their spending better, this was a pretty dumb move on the governments part but an unforgivable move on AIGs!

BUT, everyone should get the name of the game now! AIG is not to be trusted and double check the governments work!!

So you'd be okay if they decided to tax 91% of your bonus because they fucked up and made a mistake?  I don't think the government is doing a good job at all.  I really don't see how giving money to bail out the companies that contributed to the failure of the economy is going to make things better.  These companies are failing for a reason, so let them die out.  If you want to stimulate the economy, why not let the people keep it and just reduce taxes across the board for a short term period?  I'd feel a lot better if I was giving less money from my paycheck to the government since they have already proven that they don't know how to use it wisely.  There needs to be a lot more change before shit is going to get better.

How giving the companies what? I think you left a word out there, Im going to assume you meant to say money in the 2nd line after companies and move on. Either way I dont agree bailing these companies out was a good job but then again think about all of the people who do still have their jobs and how much worst of an economic crisis we'd be in if all of those companies went under? And no were not talking about the government taking money from private citizens were talking about private citizens in charge of a company that just had its ass pulled out of the fire by the government turning around and taking the governments money! And now! The government is apparently terrible because they wanna do something about AIG Execs who just made a generally shady move! and why does everyone keep dancing around the thought,..

What if the government did nothing about this? Then how would you feel then?!? Youd prolly all find something else to bitch about how the Democratic Stimulus package is complete shit

You're right, I left a few words out actually.  That's been fixed.  Anyway, back to the debate.  

I don't have all the answers, and there are plenty of mistakes that both sides will make.  I just don't see how they could have fucked up THIS bad and then think that it's okay to try and take the money back after it has been misused.  I get your point about helping these companies stay afloat to keep jobs, and I'm sure that some people had the right intentions.  The fact of the matter is that both sides are at fault and two wrongs don't make a right.  In the mean time, those execs are walking off with their bonuses that were paid by our tax dollars while the government is sitting there looking like idiots.

I'm also sure that the same amount of people would complain if the government did nothing.  You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't.  I just think a better job could be done if more common sense was used.

FAR TOO TRUE! These are difficult times! And thats enough for me in this thread!

If it could all be summarized into one phrase, it would be "Lack of common sense". Me and my girl spoke for over two hours last night about this topic. It's all about the common sense, or lack thereof.

Makes me want to get off the "grid" and move to Costa Rica to teach English for a few years and learn to surf.

Good idea Tim... Or, we could all move to Canada and have one huge CM squad

I don't want the gov not to do anything, but at the same time I don't want them using this as a excuss to throw the constitution out the window and have the ability to pick the pockets of any private citizen they feel like, which is what they are trying to do here. Who was it that said to never waste a crisis and to use it to change things.

I will answer this as best I can:

The Government alloted this money to AIG to get itself out of a catastrophic failure mode, the money was to be used to restructure, pay off debt, and reorganize the company for success.  The money was not given with either the intention nor understanding it would be used to pay out bonuses.  The government (and US taxpayers financed this loan).  I can't speak for most companies, but in mine, under employment contracts within my company, if the company goes bankrupt, or out of business, our bonuses, salaries, etc. are all nullified.  I would assume that by accepting bailout money when our company is bankrupt, these contracts SHOULD have been voided, if not, lesson learned, and this stipulation should be put in going forward.  Either way I thought they should have failed, along with automakers.  This is not a "bailout companies that make poor decisions" country, and i wish i didn't feel like we are moving in a socialist direction.

I am not scared of the government trying to find sneaky ways to get its money back, its US TAXPAYER money they are trying to retrieve, not private funds from a private company.  In this rare circumstance, I think this is what needs to happen, normally, I'd be against it.  But these employees are basically getting a free few million each, courtesy of the US taxpayer, when they should all have been fired for poor business practices and decisions, and not get a cent.

Okay I think there are a couple of issues here.

1st off the government couldn't let AIG fail because if they did it would be virtually impossiable to get a loan in this country. If people/companies can't get loans the ecnomy fails. Unfortunatly with inflation it become the common practice to use credit for everything.

2nd AIG didn't use the money correctly, and will probably end up in the shitter again before we know it.

Ehhh.  I was born in Canada.  I hate the cold.  I'd rather move somewhere tropical where I can get a job teaching english.  Can't do that in Canada unless you're in Quebec, and fuck the French.

Also fuck road salt.

Back on topic. Great thread Paul, I just wish some of our voices could make it to the right ears...

Considering that's money that they didnt have in the first place then yeah I'd be ok with it.  Just like last years stimulus check, if it started out at $600 and they made a mistake and I only got $100 out of that $600 then I would still be satisfied cuz thats $100 more than I started out with.  You cant cry over something that wasn't yours in the first place.

Regardless if AIG had a contract with the employees for those bonuses my biggest issue is if these fuckers didnt get the bail out money they would've breached the contract anyway so I dont see the big deal about not paying them those bonuses even if they were under contract.  And isn't it some kind of fraud when you draw up a contract saying you're gonna give somebody a specific amount of money when you know you dont have it!!? Too much pity for the rich IMO.

Money corrupts.  It's too bad that selfish motives are the cause of most of the world's problems.