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Title: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on August 15, 2012, 04:43:36 PM Well, now that I have completed duals for cable operated Js, time to go after the big bisnatch, DBW. 1st I have sucsefully extend the shaft of a still functioning TB and have driven on it to make sure nothing went fubar.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs008.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs011.jpg) Next rather than going thru with making a new mani for this inital test I am cutting up one of the many AT intakes I have laying around and will weld up the dual flanges tomorrow after I get some more shielding gas for the welder. (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs009.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs010.jpg) If all goes well wih this basterdized manifold I will build one from scratch like I did for the cable operated side. (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs005.jpg) Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: timot_one on August 15, 2012, 04:53:59 PM You work fast Paul!
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: Icebox on August 15, 2012, 05:24:08 PM what kind of performance gains will you see with this?
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: mschumacher on August 15, 2012, 05:25:01 PM Nice!
What's the difference between an AT and MT intake manifold? And what's the diameter at the butterfly of the stock DBW TB? Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on August 15, 2012, 05:41:56 PM what kind of performance gains will you see with this? All top end and throttle response, this is being done especially for the J36 which needs more air than even a 80mm TB can deliver to complete the power band. Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on August 15, 2012, 05:43:40 PM Nice! What's the difference between an AT and MT intake manifold? And what's the diameter at the butterfly of the stock DBW TB? The MT mani has extra valves in the middle to suedo create a longer runner, same as the TL. Stock TB is 65mm. Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: Silver Bullet on August 15, 2012, 05:56:12 PM Subscribed *** 8-)
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: Mike on August 15, 2012, 07:45:12 PM I love seeing your work! Being a fly on the wall in that garage would be amazing!
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: Rich01 on August 15, 2012, 08:17:12 PM Oh damn....what intake size are you considering, just what you did in the Pilot? I would think 2 individual intakes or at least 1.5 the diameter?
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on August 15, 2012, 08:48:40 PM I am actually looking at making the intake using 5" ss piping, yes I want a whales dick under my hood, LOL.
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: gargantula99 on August 15, 2012, 08:53:40 PM NICE!!!!
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: Rich01 on August 15, 2012, 09:26:31 PM ;D damn i wish i hit the jockpot tonight. Keep your fingers cross Paul lol
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: Accord Euro-R on August 16, 2012, 09:53:19 AM Yes Paul, when the time finally comes I will be placing my order with you for my motor and all the goodies you can pack in it! Looks amazing!
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: phunctional on August 17, 2012, 02:10:58 AM I think everyone who owns a car that fits a j series wants an engine from Paul lol.
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: CrackerTeg on August 17, 2012, 10:05:50 AM Funny you mention it, I've been fantasizing about that very thing.
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: Fanitron on August 17, 2012, 02:38:28 PM I think everyone who owns a car that fits a j series wants an engine from Paul lol. Truth :thumbsup: Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on August 17, 2012, 02:43:30 PM Well the prototype is built and when plugged into the car it did not bitch. Unfortunatly I need the accord for tonight so bolt on and run testing will have to wait until tomorrow AM.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs012.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs013.jpg) Title: Re: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: Mike on August 17, 2012, 03:11:18 PM Video on action would be awesome
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on August 17, 2012, 03:25:57 PM Tomorrow.......
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: CrackerTeg on August 17, 2012, 04:06:14 PM Oh, you tease!
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: mschumacher on August 17, 2012, 04:21:29 PM That looks beautiful man.
If only we had better tuning solutions, ITBs would be a possibility :'( Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: cna on August 17, 2012, 04:52:57 PM amazing work like always , i wounder how it would perform with a cold air intake attach , that would be bad ass
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on August 17, 2012, 05:16:30 PM It will have one, 2- 3" pipes to a 5" pipe and filter.......
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: fabulous010 on August 17, 2012, 07:31:26 PM I'll be checking in!!!
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on August 18, 2012, 11:09:54 AM Ok, first test report....
60 miles mixed driving with several hard excellerations, ECU reset at start of testing. The good: Emmissions monitors were all happy and would pass VA emissions test. No codes were thrown. Throttle response was incredible but held back by lack of volume in stock maini plenums. Excelleration was majorly improved. Sound at WOT was extreamly pleasing, deep and throuty. The not so good: Stock mani is woafully inadequte to deal with the increased air flow. Front TB in the way of EGR valve, rear TB in the way of breather port, but this was a basterdized intake made to mainly test if the ECU and mechanics would work together, mani will be trashed at end of this phase of testing. Without any adjustments yet (will be worked on latter, idle is a little higher (about 100RPM), but not rediculously the ECU is working on adjusting for it. Due to the major increase in expected air flow when the engine idles up for things like AC, PS it nearly doubles the normal 200rpm rise and instead gives a 400rpm rise which acts as a small surge and can be anoying at idle, but again the ECU seems to be working on compensaiting for it. More to come. (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs014.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs015.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/th_DualTBs016.jpg) (http://s203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/?action=view¤t=DualTBs016.mp4) Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: ikethegreat on August 18, 2012, 01:58:21 PM Sounds sweet! Does the hood close?
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: Rich01 on August 18, 2012, 05:39:22 PM Now you know it's possible and the ecu doesn't have a problem. Time for the next phase.
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: slipkord on August 18, 2012, 05:58:53 PM I wish I had the time, money and skills to do this. Awesome job so far.
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: timot_one on August 19, 2012, 09:46:13 PM Looking forward to future results.
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on August 20, 2012, 07:20:22 AM Well, I started cutting another mani apart and made a die set so I can form horns on the end of 2" aluminum tubing. Should have some pics today.
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on August 20, 2012, 02:15:59 PM Well, here are some pics of the next mani being made for this. Since I have to go up to get the extra plenum volume I need I decided to make a die set so I can press form some 2" tubing with horn ends to extend the runner legnth by a additional 1.75", figured might as well add some low tourqe to offset the additional flow for high end HP. So far the bottoms are formed and tacked together next to go after the top amnd sides, then the ends and connections for the TBs.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs017.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs018.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs019.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs020.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs021.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs022.jpg) More to come as the mani takes shape. Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: Rich01 on August 20, 2012, 08:01:56 PM Holy crap :o That thing is turning into a beast.
Question, would you run a SC with this? Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on August 20, 2012, 08:38:14 PM And some more update pics, unfortunatly probly wont get much time to work on this tomorrow.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs023.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs024.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs025.jpg) Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on August 20, 2012, 08:38:55 PM Holy crap :o That thing is turning into a beast. Question, would you run a SC with this? No, the cost/benifit is not there with a SC, only na. Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: timot_one on August 20, 2012, 11:43:46 PM What did you use to calculate the runner length/diameter and the plenum volume? I've been wanting to learn more about intake manifold design to hopefully find something to replace the horrible manifold design that came with my M62 kit.
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on August 21, 2012, 06:28:27 AM Alot of Gemoetry to figure out volume. Runner legnth is pretty stright forward mesuring. As far as diameter of runners it is looking at the combined intake valve diameter and NOT going larger than that, you want velocity in the the runner, this also helps to atomize/mix the fuel. As far as plenum volume I am simply expecting that honda has done a pretty good job engineering and doubeling the volume since I am doubling the capable air flow.
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: Accord Euro-R on August 21, 2012, 12:35:22 PM ([url]http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs020.jpg[/url]) Pardon the potential nOOb-ness of this question as I am nowhere near the expert level on engines, but could you leave the entire thing simply looking like that? Some of the 4-cyl cars I see at car shows look similar to that and have those rounded bezels coming out of each cyl for their air intake (see example below). Obviously throw some screens/filters on but could it be done? Looks nice IMO but just wondering... (http://image.modified.com/f/17357434/0611sscp_opera_performance_honda_s2000_f20c_individual_throttle_bodies_z.jpg) Anywayz, back OT...still looks like an amazing project and cannot wait to see the final results. Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: Icebox on August 21, 2012, 12:48:58 PM those cars you see at the shows have individual throttle bodies. the photo of pauls is just the manifold with no throttle bodies. i believe paul is trying to accomplish something similiar to itb's. i think it would be very difficult to accomplish itb's on a v6.
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: Rushzer0 on August 21, 2012, 12:58:20 PM I think the new skylines have ITBS they are just covered by a plenum, there are also a few BMW's
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: mschumacher on August 21, 2012, 01:05:05 PM I will be installing ITBs on my V6 once the manual trans swap is done. The mounting flange is really easy to do, which was the biggest problem for me on my Honda D series motors which had too much going on with the flange.
I will need a standalone ECU, so I will run either a Megasquirt or a Haltech ECU, depending on the funds available then. Those velocity stacks you are talking about can be done on plenum single-TB style manifolds too, but they will be hidden unless you make a rice/baller manifold out of thick plexiglass lol. With the Skylines, it is more difficult since they are turbocharged and need a proper plenum that won't explode/leak under boost lol. It is all doable, just depends on how much money you want to spend and how much downtime you are ready for. Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on August 27, 2012, 08:59:11 PM New manifold is done and results are promising, map readings look much better and I do not feel the low end tourqe loss. Fitment is much better, clearing the EGR valve. Even base idle is much better. More time on the road coming....
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs026.jpg) Sorry about the video quality but it is with a cheaper camera and I had to do double duty driving and operating. Rolling from the shoulder into traffic. (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/th_DualTBs031.jpg) (http://s203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/?action=view¤t=DualTBs031.mp4) Rolling. (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/th_DualTBs032.jpg) (http://s203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/?action=view¤t=DualTBs032.mp4) Dead stop to top of first. Love the puff as the throttles open up. (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/th_DualTBs033.jpg) (http://s203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/?action=view¤t=DualTBs033.mp4) These are on a stock engine/ecu/exhaust(cored pre-cats)/AT. Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: HEcreated487 on August 28, 2012, 12:18:29 PM Wow, zero to 60 in 6-7 secs, for stock engine... seems good. Love the sound. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on August 29, 2012, 09:03:04 PM Honda and others show an average 7.80sec 0-60, that was in the 6-7 sec range and was not full out.
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: 3.Slow6MT on August 30, 2012, 10:28:54 AM Come on...we know this mod is going to be great but a difference of 1 full second 0-60? That'd be a ridiculous gain and totally unfeasible for such a mod. The AT does 0-60 in the upper 6 second range stock. If this manifold decreased the 0-60 time by 0.2 seconds, that'd be a great and noticeable gain. Obviously that would mean the 0-100 time would be quicker by more than 0.2 seconds, resulting in a much faster 1/4 mile time as well. You can't expect this to decrease the 0-60 time by a second though lol. That'd translate to easily over a second in the 1/4, which is equivalent to a 100+hp gain.
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: 3.Slow6MT on August 31, 2012, 11:04:29 AM If I didn't just buy the 3.7 TL intake manifold/throttle body I'd be all over this as well.
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: Icebox on August 31, 2012, 11:14:22 AM If I didn't just buy the 3.7 TL intake manifold/throttle body I'd be all over this as well. wait, im confused didnt you just state that this was ridiculous and unfeasible. Come on...we know this mod is going to be great but a difference of 1 full second 0-60? That'd be a ridiculous gain and totally unfeasible for such a mod. The AT does 0-60 in the upper 6 second range stock. If this manifold decreased the 0-60 time by 0.2 seconds, that'd be a great and noticeable gain. Obviously that would mean the 0-100 time would be quicker by more than 0.2 seconds, resulting in a much faster 1/4 mile time as well. You can't expect this to decrease the 0-60 time by a second though lol. That'd translate to easily over a second in the 1/4, which is equivalent to a 100+hp gain. Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: 3.Slow6MT on August 31, 2012, 12:53:58 PM I said to decrease the 0-60 time 1 full second is completel unreasonable, yes. I also said that there's no question this manifold/TB setup is going to make great power.
I think this project is awesome and totally commend and thank Paul for being so innovative. If it weren't for Paul a lot of us would still be scratching our heads. My point is, to expect the magnitude of gains to reflect a drop in 1 full second of the 0-60 time is incorrect. I thought I was stating the obvious.... Title: Re: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: Mike on August 31, 2012, 04:02:46 PM I'm sure Paul's intentions are not to impress us with a zero to sixty improvement. That's enough Bullshit in this thread...
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: 3.Slow6MT on September 01, 2012, 09:31:53 AM I don't think it was his intention either. It's not BS, it's conversation. If you think I'm knocking Paul you're severely mistaken...
Title: Re: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: Mike on September 01, 2012, 10:58:36 AM I don't think your knocking anyone. But you are filling this thread with things that are a bot off the subject. I'll clean this thread up later.
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on September 26, 2012, 11:26:54 AM Pics of what should be the final version, I am testing it now and have ordered materials for a dual 3" to 5" intake.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs034.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs035.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs036.jpg) Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: CrackerTeg on September 26, 2012, 12:06:01 PM Pics of what should be the final version, I am testing it now and have ordered materials for a dual 3" to 5" intake. AKA-whale penis.I love how semi OEM it looks Paul. Are you planning on leaving the welds as is or smoothing them down some? Just curious. Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on September 26, 2012, 01:42:29 PM I could grind them smooth< but you are talking alot of hours and abrasives.
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: Rich01 on September 26, 2012, 07:46:44 PM Would the stock coil pack cover still fit? It looks like it would only fit with the MDX spacer.
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: CrackerTeg on September 26, 2012, 08:35:22 PM I could grind them smooth< but you are talking alot of hours and abrasives. Completely understandable. Like I said, I was curious. I'm sure the guys that would be getting this have no interest in the looks and more the performance. Either way, it's a beautiful piece of custom fab bro.Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on September 27, 2012, 06:31:08 AM Would the stock coil pack cover still fit? It looks like it would only fit with the MDX spacer. You can not run the MDX spacer with this mani, you will be into the hood. That is whay I added the velocity stacks to the inside of the mani, The MDX spacer adds 1" of legnrth to the runners, the adders I weld into the inside actually add 1.75" of legnth to the runners. Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on September 27, 2012, 01:43:28 PM Just to give you guys an idea of the scale of a 5" bend. Hopefully the rest of the materials will be here early next week.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/DualTBs.jpg) Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: HEcreated487 on September 28, 2012, 12:38:11 PM It'll be interesting to see how you fab the transition to the TBs, Paul, as well as the filter location....
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: Icebox on October 01, 2012, 11:17:57 AM had the opportunity to see this fine fabrication in person yesterday, very impressive!
Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: NVA-AV6 on October 14, 2012, 08:25:22 AM Well the intake is done and the completed unit on it's way to the customer now that it is powder coated.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa22/csmalser/Dual%20TBs/M90Install.jpg) Title: Re: Dual Throttle Bodies Post by: timot_one on October 14, 2012, 11:19:03 AM That intake is massive. Any pictures of it completed with the powder coat?
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