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My car is tracking left.  It can be described as a moderate pull to the left (i.e. when the driver releases the steering wheel, the car will definitely move into the next lane... or oncoming traffice!  ???).  The car doesn't do a full U-turn, but it is definitely not a simple drift.  Some effort is needed to keep the car rolling straight (within the lane lines) and causing the wheel to be slight turning clockwise (approximately 3° to 5°)...

Before your brain cogs start spinning, here are some specs:
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Alignment (Yes, there is excessive camber.  Somewhat necessary to fit some wide wheels and tires ;))

• - DS Front:  0.00° Toe | -2.6° Camber | 3.9° Caster
• - DS Rear:  0.08° Toe | -4.5° Camber
• - PS Front:  0.00° Toe | -2.8° Camber | 3.7° Caster
• - PS Rear:  0.10° Toe | -4.8° Camber

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Other:

• Raise the car approximately 1" (if that matters)
• New wheels and tires with air pressure set at ~35 PSI
• Bushings and ball joings were inspected and seem to be in decent shape.  No tears, cracks or significant, noticeable deterioration from what I can observe.
• No leaking from any steering component.  Nothing noticeable from what I observed.
• Replaced the front brake pads and rotors on Friday, 01 March 2013.  Please note that the drifting occured before the change to the front brake pads and rotors.
• The car tracks left more noticeably when accelerating, which I find odd.

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So what could it be??

• Improper brake engagement at the front DS wheel or something with brakes?
• Wheel bearing?
• Tires?
• Steering component?
• Suspension component?
• :question: :question: :question: :question:

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Any insight would be much appreciated.  Thanks ECM fam. :thumbsup:

How was the wear on those pads before you changed them? I'm suspecting a seizing caliper.

Unsure on the wear for the pads, since I had a shop replace the brakes and they stated they would check the calipers.  They didn't mention anything regarding the calipers, although I would suspect that may be the culprit as well.  I plan to call them today.

Find out if the pads wore unevenly. That will tell you.

Ok, called the shop.  They stated it should have nothing to do with the braking system.  They offered to inspect the brakes, the alignment and rotate tires.  They stated it's most likely the tires, but they're brand new.  Hmmm.

Should have nothing to do with the braking system? If a front caliper is siezing, how does that not have anything to do with the braking system? Now that i think about it a little more, what if the caliper slide pins aren't doing their job? That could do the same thing.

Mike, I'd recommend to NOT go back to that shop ever again if they're blaming tires and not actually inspecting your stuff properly.

Good recommendation Z.  I will rotate my tires this afternoon to see if that does anything.  I'll also have my uncle (a mechanic at Acura) take a look at it.  Take that, shop-who-took-my-money.   :D

Yeah! Take it!

Wait. Why is the PS have 2 degrees more negative then the DS?

I just noticed that. Good question. Mike?

Thanks for noticing that, Thien. :thumbsup: It's a typo. OP revised.

OK, now I can thoroughly diagnose this. A seize caliper won't cause a pull unless under braking 90% of the time. You say you have new tires. What brand tires did you get? I'm going to assume you have even tread on them. What are the tire size? OK, here is what I want you to do. Only rotate the two front tires from side to side. Note, if the car pulls to the right, then you have a tire pull. Then you will need to see the shop that sold you the tire to see if they can correct this issue with a road force balance or warranty out the tire for you.

Here's the details, Thien, as requested.

A little history.  I bought a new set of wheels and tires from the "mainland" (i.e. Continental US) and had them shipped here (i.e. Hawaii).  The tires were mounted, filled with 30psi of compressed air and balanced, although I am unsure of what wheel balancing equipment was utilized.  Wheel and tire specs are:
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• 19x10 et35 Rotiform SNA SQUARE
  
• 265/30/19 Achilles 2233 tires (400 A A Rating :)).  Yeah, I know these aren't name brand or the greatest of tires, but the price I paid for the package, INCLUDING SHIPPING TO HAWAII, pretty much provided FREE tires  ;)...
• McGaurd Spline lugs and locking lug nut set

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Upon arrival of the wheels and tires, the weights on two (2) of the wheels had lost adhesion and came off.  I had these two wheels rebalanced.  These are mounted on the fronts.  The other two wheels are assumed to be balanced as the weights are still intact.

Last night I took your advice and rotated the front two tires only, from side to side.  The result?  The car still tracks left, but not as noticeable.  Still has a moderate pull to the left under acceleration.  ::)  I plan to have the shop recheck the alignment, possible rotation of the rear tires (side to side), check the tire pressure in all the tires, have them rebalance all the wheels/tires as well and inspect the suspension/braking/steering components while the wheels are off, since they offered to do some of it for free.  We'll see if that helps.

Any other suggestions would be great. :)

I know for sure those Achilles tires aren't that great, and it could be a possible major tire pull. Try swap the front tires to the rears and see what happens from there. You say it happens mainly during acceleration. I would check all your motor mounts to make sure none of them are worn out or damaged. After you've swapped the front tires to the rears, and the pulling to the left stops, I would chalk it up to the tires.

Damn tires.  :(... I'll work on it some more but that's unfortunate that it can be the tires. I was just hoping for decent length of use and tire wear. F@$&!!

Thanks Thien!

I see it a lot of times. A lot of times its due to how the tires were shipped. They lace and jam pack all the tires on truck. A lot of times they sit squished together. Which then can distort the sidewall of the tires. Shops won't know until they sell the tires, and the customer complains about a pull not related to an alignment. Also, where the tire is made a lot of times makes a difference. Unfortunately, those Achilles tires I believe are made in China/Taiwan or some outsourced plant in another country. The rubber compound used in different countries do play an effect on how they perform in other countries.

For example: You can have two of the same brand/model of the tire, but one tire is made say in Malaysia and the other in USA. The tire compound on each one is different. The one in Malaysia is a lot of time a softer compound, while the one in the USA is harder. Thus, the softer compound tire will grip more causing a pull to the direction that tire is in.

Thanks for the additional info, Thien.  What would you recommend?  Beat the sh!t out of these tires and hopefully they die in a year, justifying replacement?  I would prefer not to have to replace them at this point as it would seem unfortunate to replace "brand new" tires.  Yeah, I got what I "paid" for, but I would still hope to get some use out of them.

Will this tire pull be detrimental to the overall performance and wear of the car and its other systems/components?

To be honest, I would run them until they are done. The tire itself won't cause any performance issues. You'll just have that constant pull to the left. How many miles are on your car? Another option to solving your tire issues is maybe have a tire shop flip the tires, and see if that helps.

Thanks Thien. I just returned from the shop. They recognized the car and stated that the issue lies with the camber, as its way out of spec and causing opposing forces between the driver and passenger sides. The head technician and owner (who is very knowledgeable, with many, many years of experience) said that I cannot expect it to perform like stock cause there are numerous aftermarket components and modifications. Due to the stiff suspension and and alignment settings, every little bump in the road will almost certainly affect the steering and driving "feel". He stated that rebalancing the tires may help, but probably will have no significant effect, and would be a waste of my time and his. He said to just enjoy the car :)...

Well that didn't solve anything  ::)

Since the Achilles 2233 has an asymmetrical tread pattern, I believe they technically cannot be flipped. I could always ask though. Has anyone had experience with flipping asymmetrical tires, especially when the sidewalls indicate "outside" and "inside", respectfully?

Since its an asymmetrical tire, it is not advise to flip them because the inner sidewall is stiffer then the outer. Also depending on the tread, it may not perform as its suppose to. As in, it won't evacuate water like its suppose to and can cause some hydroplaning.

Even though the shop states camber is so far out, its even, and the car should still track correctly. Even with aftermarket parts, if you adjust toe correctly, the car should still drive partially straight and not veer left.

Camber pulls to the "MOST" positive side. Caster pulls to the most negative side. What is your caster reading? They say toe doesn't cause a pull, but I beg to differ. If toe is adjusted incorrectly, it makes the steering off center. When you straighten the steering wheel, the car then will pull in whatever direction it is off center.

I forgot to respond to the mileage question Thien. I have approximately 76,600 miles.

Here is the updated alignment setting (OP REVISED AS WELL):

• - DS Front:  0.00° Toe | -2.6° Camber | 3.9° Caster
• - DS Rear:  0.08° Toe | -4.5° Camber
• - PS Front:  0.00° Toe | -2.8° Camber | 3.7° Caster
• - PS Rear:  0.10° Toe | -4.8° Camber

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So that slightly more positive camber on the DS may be a slight contributor to the leftward tracking? Seems a little trivial.

I highly doubt it 0.3 of camber difference will cause pull. It would have to be more around the 1 degree area to cause a real pull. You don't have that much mileage to have some significant suspension issue. I'm going to either have to chalk it up to the tires, or their alignment readings are off.

Ok thanks again Thien. I assume this reputable shop has a properly calibrated and leveled Hunters alignment equipment/rack. I'll have to add a second chalk mark towards the tires being the culprit. I plan to run them bald now. Stupid tires. LOL.

I would not return to that shop.  I would question exactly how knowledgeable this head technician actually is.

Your camber readings will not cause pull unless, as Thien stated, the alignment readings are off.  The alignment machine must be really out of calibration in this case.

I know from personal experience that negative camber can track straight.  When my s2000 was stupidly low, my camber was at -4F and -5R; it never had a problem with pulling either left or right.

I'll do a little more investigation on the wear on the motor mounts (via recommendation from Thien) as well as the suspension/steering components.  Weather here in HI is pretty consistent, so I am hoping there isn't any significant damage to rubber bushings, metal bolts, etc.

@Mark- Thanks for the response.  I do not question the validitdy of the head technician. He is an older gentleman and is very knowledgeable regarding all makes and models (based on speaking directly to him and overhearing his conversations with other customers), although they specialize in Euros.  The shop is primilarily a "by-the-book", certified auto repair and maintenance shop, and their foucs is on your standard daily drivers.  I believe I am the very few modified cars that enter that shop.  In fact, the numerous times I've been there, I was the ONLY modified car in the shop (they have five (5) lifts, two (2) spare bays and approximately eight (8) parking stalls).  My suspicion would be that the shop's (and owner's) preference would be to have a properly, OEM spec'd vehicle that operates ONLY as intended.  Well, what would be the point in that?!?!  LOL.

And I think he was just tired of "dealing" with my modified "ricer".  LOL :D  Good shop, good people; they're just not tailored for modified vehicles.  I plan to take my business elsewhere from this point forward. :)

Also, I wanted to report another issue.  On certain roads, my car will have the "fish tailing" affect i.e. the car's rear end, and overally body, literally shifts from left to right about four times.  It is very noticeable.  It's the same roads each day.  One patch of road is on the highway, so having that very noticeable swaying at highway speeds is extremely nerve racking and potentially unsafe, especially when trying to keep the car steady and straight.

What would be culpit of this?  Tires again?  The camber settings?  Inadequate rear sway bar (i.e. the rear is stock, but could be upgraded to the TL-S rear sway bar)?  It makes me think that this wheel and tire setup is not worth all this work and headache.

Thanks in advance.

It could be a combination of the camber and the tires.  The negative camber decreases the amount of tire contact patch; which is why it is important to have quality tires when running a setup like this.

Does it start at the rear, and then momentum travels foward?  Or does the whole car shift at the same time?  You might be able to play with damping settings to lessen the affect.

Yes, the swaying does begin at the rear and its momentum travels forward.  Great question Mark. :thumbsup:  The entire car shifts at the same time.  It can be described similar to as if someone was to stand next to your car near the C-Pillar and would forcefully move the car left to right a few times via pushing.  I hope that makes sense.

Again, the sh!tty tires, combined with somewhat aggressive camber, may be the source.  FML.  LOL.

If you can, try and soften your rebound settings.  My suspicion is that either the spring is not compressing enough and then the rebound effect is causing it to jump a little, or the rebound is too stiff that it is rebounding too quickly.

But until you can figure out exactly what is the culprit, take it slow.  You may need to raise the car for now to lessen the camber so you can get more contact patch to safely ride on those tires.

Thanks Mark.  Here are my suspension settings, for reference:

• AMR Coilovers, Skunk2 Front UCA Camber Kit, J-Power (Ingalls replica) rear camber kit
• Replaced HyperCo springs with Swift Springs
• OLD HyperCo Springs: 10K Front | 8K Rear | 65mm ID | 8" Length
  
• NEW Swift Springs: 12K Front | 6K Rear | 65mm ID | 9" Length
  
• Dampening settings: 7/8 clicks Front | 5/8 clicks rear.  1 = Full Soft.  8 = Full Stiff.

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Maybe I'll raise it a good inch and run mexipoke with -1° to -2° camber all around.   ;)  Increasing the tires' contact patch is definitely my goal.  I do plan to check the spring preload at all corners since I'm at it.

I agree with Mark. Since you are running that much negative camber, you have less tire to make contact with the road. Which in terms equal less grip. Raise the car up and adjust the dampening. I wouldn't run such stiff settings in the front. You have the weight of the engine that puts force down during driving if you were to hit a bump of any sort. Try middle 4/8 in the front and 6/8 in the rear. You'll have to play around with your suspension settings until you can really solve this issue. The tires itself might still cause an issue. If you have done whatever you can to correct suspension settings, and it problem persists, the tires will need to be changed to correct this tracking issue.

Thanks Thien.  Well, there goes my hopes and dreams of riding "dumped" LOL.  I'll adjust the front dampening settings this afternoon.  I really like how the car rides with the current rear dampening of 5/8, so it'll remain as is.  Just like any well executed science experiment, adjust one variable at a time to see it's affect in comparison to the "control".  It's unfortunate I don't have the "control" specimen (i.e. stock Accord) to compare to. LOL.

BTW, there's some pix of the current modifications in this thread:

http://www.v6performance.net/forums/2094585-post59.html (http://www.v6performance.net/forums/2094585-post59.html)

http://www.v6performance.net/forums/2094609-post60.html (http://www.v6performance.net/forums/2094609-post60.html)

Does that contact patch look bad?

Its not that terrible, but on a 265, its not that great. I would want to utilize all of the 265. I had 265/35 R18 awhile back on 18x9.5 Volk Racing CE28. I ran but a mere 1.5 degrees of camber in the rear, and 2 degrees in the front. I had very little rubbing issues, and I was roughly 0 finger gap front and 1 finger gap rear.

I agree, Thien.  My goal was to utilize all of the 265 at the rear.  I researched a ton (i.e. your car, MystaTecho (V6P), JT, Alex (k24)), did a bunch of calculations and figured I could run this current wheel/tire setup in the rear and be within OEM alignment specs.  I wasn't expecting to be within OEM specs at the front, but with square wheel/tire combo, rotating tires would allow even tire wear.  I was definintely NOT EXPECTING to run -4.5° or more at the rear.  :-[

Comptemplating what I plan to do next for the Accord, especially on how to mitigate the issues I am currently having.  Thus, SERIOUSLY considering selling/trading my current wheels and tires for something more conservative, especially for the alignment settings.  Too much of a headache.  Oh well, first world problems.   :'(... I would love to hear what you all think I should do regarding the wheels.

BTW, I thought the coupes have more fender clearance than the sedans, hence their ability to run more aggressive and/or wider tire setups compared to the sedans?

They do have more clearance. Not much but they do. How do you think JT was able to tuck 10" wide wheels with a 265 tire?

Was JT's setup MB weapons, 18x9 et45 with 265/35 tires?  I think he just had a roll in the rear and no mods in the front.

I believe Alex was running the following specs:

Front:  19x8.5 et45 | 245/35/19 | -0.5° camber | Fender Roll
Rear:  19x9.5 et40 | 265/30/19 | -1.0° camber | Fender Roll

Thus, I was expecting not to have to run such aggressive negative camber if Alex had similar specs.

The specs on your wheels, and the specs you believe Alex's wheels to be, are not similar.  Your front stick out 29mm more, and your rear stick out 11mm more, than Alex's setup.  That is also not taking into account that you have 265s in the front or the variance in tire manufacturing, where some tires are wider than others (even when claimed to be the same width).

Thanks Z and Mark for the responses.

I understand there are some differences in the specs between my setup and others.  In comparing Alex's setup, I feel the differences at the rear would not necessitate a variation in camber by 3.5°.  Or at least that's what I was not expecting, nor calculated.  Again, based on research and calculations, I was anticipating I could run this current wheel/tire setup in the rear and be within OEM alignment specs.  I wasn't expecting to be within OEM specs at the front (as Mark and Thien both stated), but with square wheel/tire combo, rotating tires would allow even tire wear.  Again, I was definintely NOT EXPECTING to run -4.5° or more at the rear.

It is what it is.  Thanks again fellas.

If it was me I would raise the car up a bit and try to get rid of some of that negative camber.  I'd rather the wheels poke out a bit than to have the car constantly pull to one side and chew up tires quickly.   :confused:

I'm curious here Mike. This drift of yours only started with this wheel/ tire combo or was it present with your old Matrix wheels? As I have no idea when you made the switch since you keep your car under wraps most of the time.

The drift only started with the new wheel/tire setup and the revised alignment settings.  I think I've fully exhausted the alignment side of things, so it is most likely attributed to the wheel/tire combo.  I do plan to have the rear wheels rebalanced, as they haven't been rebalanced since delivery from the CONUS.  That'll be my starting point.  Again, all wheels were balanced before shipment from CA, but two wheels had the weights fall off upon arrival.  Those wheels have been rebalanced and placed on the fronts.  The other two wheels were placed at the rear.

Did the PO ever mention a pull? What did the tread look like when you put them on?

You mean whether the previous owner had mentioned issues with a pull from the wheels and tires?  If so, then the answer would be "no".  The wheels and tires were brought brand new from a shop in CA; tires mounted, aired and balanced by that same shop; then shipped.

Oh. I thought you picked them up used. My bad.

Does anyone suspect the swaying could be attributed to improperly balanced / imbalanced rear wheels, since the rear set of wheels/tires has not been rebalanced since being shipped?  I plan to swap the rears to the front and see if any vibration ensues; then take the appropriate actions thereon.

An out of balance wheel will not cause swaying. Out of balance wheels will only cause a vibration after a certain speed.

Update.

Did this over the weekend.  Rotated the new wheels (back to fronts and vice versa) to try and alleviate the swaying / massive fish tailing issue.  No change.  Swapped back to the old wheels to see if it was the new wheels causing the swaying.  Swaying and fish tailing persisted with the old, and actually got MUCH WORSE.

This morning I realigned the rear wheels to OEM spec.  SWAYING AND FISH TAILING IS GONE COMPLETELY.  :thumbsup:  Looks like the SEVERLY OUT OF OEM SPEC CAMBER was the culprit.  Rides smooth like butter now.  Gonna realign the front to OEM spec soon.

Honestly, I had not anticipated that the camber settings had that ill of an effect, especially when others (CM Accords, and other makes/models into the aggressive "stance" fitment scene) are running excessive camber with, assumedly, no notcieable adverse effects.  :-[... An example would be Oni-Camber from Japan.  Oh well.  Lessons learned.

Swapping back to the OEM wheels does not surprise me that it caused it to be worse; it is less of a contact patch due to the tire not being as wide.

The reason why other cars don't notice it and you did is tire quality, as Thien has previously stated and I previously alluded to.  I honestly would not be surprised if you had a better quality tire, such as a Bridgestone Potenza RE760 Pole Position or Bridgestone Potenza RE-11, that you would not have had the same issues you experienced.  The particular rubber compound used to create the tire is especially important when running an aggressive setup.

Thanks Mark.  It was a combination of things.  The new wheels and tires are for sale now :)

Update:  The noticeable body sway, initiated from the rear of the car, is still present.  All alignment settings are in OEM spec, old tires re-installed and rotated.  Swaying persists.  WTH is going on?  :'(... Your input would be much appreciated.  Having an experience mechanic look at it.

Im assuming it didn't happen with the old tires before the swap. How smooth are the roads there? Are you driving on a certain side of the road? What tires are on your car right now? Did you place the wheels/tires back where they originally were? Could you take a pic of your alignment print out? Do you have an aftermarket sway bar?

There is a lot of variables that could cause your problem. You will have to give us detailed information in order for us to try and solve your problem.

Didn't you recently change your suspension?

Thanks for the response, Thien.  I'll answer in order your questions were posted.

• Yes, you are correct.  It did not sway with the old tires before the swap.
• The road conditions vary greatly.  Main streets are decent, but not ideal.  Side and back streets are terrible.  The DOT sucks here and the road maintenance has been very sub-par, not to mention it's currently significantly backlogged.  Doesn't help that I live on a private lane full of pot holes.
• Unsure on how to answer the question regarding the "side of the road".  As mentioned previously, there are certain stretches of roads that consistently produce the swaying.  I drive those everyday and it's almost certain the swaying will occur in those areas.
• Current tires are BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDWS, 215/45/18.  Used approximately 30K or so.  Has bad camber wear due to a loose toe arm from a couple of years ago.  The arm has been fixed for sometime, but the wear is forever uneven.  LOL.
• Did not place the wheels in the exact same positions as they originally were.  I plan to do a tire rotation soon.
• I do not have an alignment print out.  I do a self alignment using jack stands, a string, a level and a measuring tape.  I am confident it's accurate since I have done it numerous times before and when having it professionally aligned via Hunters equipment, I was within OEM spec or outside of OEM spec, but very near it.
  
• OEM sway bar.

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Yes and no?  I upgraded my suspension about 5K miles ago, so nothing really recent.  The only adjustment I have done recently (since the start of this thread) was raise it up approximately 1" and completed a realignment.

Its a possibility that those heavily cambered tires are just worn out. As for your at home alignment adjustment, I wouldn't trust that. Even the slightest adjustment causes a heavy change in alignment spec. I would highly recommend getting an alignment done by a shop who has the proper equipment. I don't which shop you have been taking it too, but it is a possibility their machine is out of spec. Also, the position of your heavily camber tires plays an effect as well. If they are really cambered and on the rears, it will sway like before. Could you take a picture of your cambered tires and your alignment sheet. I want to see your alignment reading. That way I can determine what is going on with your swaying problem.

Thanks again, Thien.  I plan on getting new tires and an alignment soon.  If that mitigates the swaying, I'd be a happy camper. :)

Update.

Swapped to stock/OEM suspension  (Yuck... ::)), OEM camber/toe arms rear and OEM UCA front.  New tires (Michelin Primacy MXM4 Grand Touring All-Season 225/45/18 on 18x7 OEM Matrix XRS wheels).  Professionally mounted and balanced.  Full re-alignment to OEM specs all around.  I checked most of the bushings front and rear, and they seemed ok (i.e. no tears, cracks, worn appearance).

Results:  There is still a slight swaying noticed.  Not as prominent as before, but there.  Same stretches of roads cause the swaying to amplify.  Any suggestions on its origination?  Any further input is appreciated.

At least it can be deduced that the aftermarket suspension (and its components), the SNAs with Achilles tires and aggressive negative camber weren't the only factors...

How is the wear on the tires?

I always have messed up tracking with Honda cars... never fixed . However I have never gone through the detail like yourself.

Thanks for the response, Asim.  The tire wear on the previous tires was decent, although an improperly installed aftermarket toe arm caused accelerated tire wear on the inside tread.  The toe arm issue was resolved a while back.  I now have new tires, so I will be monitoring its overall wear progress.

At stock height.  :(

So very sad, my heart is.  :(  :'(... I guess just gotta do what's necessary to diagnose issues.  On a positive note, though, the stock ride is so damn comfortable. :)

Tell me you still have your aftermarket stuff to put back on.

I has it.... for now  ;D

Now what the fuck do you have up your sleeve?