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I found this article while i was being bored and was looking up on other EMS/ piggy back alternative for everyone else that is not planing to do a headswap/ Force induction and just want to work with what they have on the accord while is full bolt on.

Yes, I found it on crappy import tuner but anyway check it out.

As you may know the k20a3 aka ep3/rsx base motor has econo vtec like our accord. So this might be an nice alternative for people who want to run some kinda of ems/piggy back. You can see an increase of
Horsepower Gain
1500 to 3500 HP range: 1 to 3
3500 to 5500 HP range: 2 to 4
5500 to redline HP range: 5 to 7

Torque Gain
1500 to 3500 TQ range: 2 to 3
3500 to 5500 TQ range: 3 to 4
5500 to redline TQ range: 4 to 5

It is decent but I think you would really be better off spent the money on other mod or just saving for hondata.

My estimate price for this is
400 for apexi afc neo *maybe you can find it on ebay for 250-350*
190 for boomslang harness for AT *170 for MT*
400 for 2hr of tuning to fix the oem baseline and smooth thing out *only an estimate I have no idea how long it will take and price also*
200 for wideband O2 of course

so about 1200 for maybe 5-10whp increase and maybe 5-10wtq increase *due to our larger displacement*  

So compared to hondata kpro it can cost a lot more 1350 for hondata + cham famous harness, 200 for wideband O2, and like 600 for full MAP tuning.

so about 2150 for ~20whp and ~20wtq.


http://www.importtuner.com/tech/powerpa ... c_neo.html (http://www.importtuner.com/tech/powerpages/0709_impp_2004_honda_civic_si_ep3/apexi_safc_neo.html)

So given that the apexi afc neo set up cost half as much as kpro and have a lot of maybe I would suggest you either save for kpro or for you k24a8 guys the flash pro if they can get it to work on the k24a8 *see other trend on here*

I would get this set up only if it were close to 500 buck I am sure that is nothing going to happen.

Good find. Even still, though, it's sort of expensive to be a budget tuner. But I guess you have to do what you have to do.

I remember when I was looking at those JET performance chips when I was a total noob. All I have to say is that I'm glad that I never bought one.

The only thing that's sort of iffy with this tuner is that most of the power gains is at near redline. Are those numbers advertised on a stock vehicle, or were there bolt-ons involved? I'm sure those numbers would go up with bolt-ons...

the car had some bolt on such as intake and exhaust. I am not sure of anything else. As for the pricing some of it are guesstimates, but still my point is that that for now the  price of the setup is not worth the performance.

$1200 isn't really worth it IMHO.  When you think about it, with a little more money, you can go with kpro and make more power.  I know some of you nancy boys are "anti kpro".  Realistically, everything else sucks compared to kpro.

Yeah for once I totally agree with you. If you save up another 2400 you can have kpro + harness + a tune. And the krpo can be used for about anything you want force induction or all motor application.

This is the first time you agree with something I've had to say.  Damn, that's cold hearted.  I guess you must know more than me, huh?

How about we all agree to disagree? Any takers? Huh? Huh?

i meant to say agree 100% the other times I'm like hmmmmm and 80% convince.

i mean you can find a apexi neo for 150 used maybe less, and you can always tap your ecu as long as you know what your doing and save the 200 for the harness, and then  if you know a reputable tuner it should cost you like 300 to tune.. so in reality 450 to gain 5-10 whp would be worth it compared to the 2k with a tune for kpro.. it could be used as an alternative, until you can save up for kpro and atleast get something out of it.

You could also find someone that has more money than brains and buys kpro and a harness, then decides to sell it for $1200 with everything needed and street tune it like I did.

Speaking of which..... *looks over at g7a*

 

I'm pretty sure there's someone selling a kpro on there.

yeah he just selling the MT harness.

Man Tim you got lucky with the 1200 kpro +harness + tuning on it. Let me know if you find another one I will buy it no question asked if he has a street tune for all bolt on.

you can sure. but this can be an alternative for less than half the price of that until someone can afford that. Most people are not up to spend that. but then that comes to how fast do you want to go? it all depends on how much money you have to spend or deals you can find. Me on the other hand this will be my alternative because im  not gonna spend a whole lot on the car for the reason  people will put there car before there other priorities.

To be honest, the tune was junk.  He got ripped off for a $600 tune.  I installed kpro and ran his tune first and the a/f ratio was like 12.0 at idle and pegged at 10 at light throttle (he wasn't running an a/f gauge so he didn't know).  It was so rich, I switched over to another tune that another member got done at Church's.  That was a shitload better.  Either way, you can find deals if you're patient.

Back on topic though, it's not worth the extra expense to run kpro or anything else for just bolt ons.  Realistically, the hp gains per $ spent doesn't make it worth the expense.  I would only suggest people run kpro if they plan on building their motors or going fi, not for basic bolt ons (like the guy I bought my kpro from).

its all good.

I just wanted to give people the opinion for an ems to try to get w/e left of there bolt ons if they really dont plan to build the motor or go F/I.

Also does anyone know if the accord is wideband or notl? The OE replacement says wideband and since its like 65 buck for a bosch one I don't mine spending that much but I would rather use the accord if it is wideband since its OEM

I don't believe it is.  That's why I'm using a RSX Type S a/f sensor instead of the OEM Accord one.

For that price you could spend another 100 more and pick up a E-mange ultimate. I looked into these myself but the ultimate can do a little more from what I have seen. Being one of the k24a8 guys if our only option for a tune was a piggy back because well k-pro has not been adapted and worse case F-pro doesn't work I would say we should look into the ultimate. There is another option but I'm still trying to research it a little. I'm not sure the apexi afc would really do anything for the a8? For that we could just get a FMU the old school way and try that out lol. If it comes down tot use having to use a piggy back I get that gut feeling the ultimate would be best. K-pro and alike can kiss my grits!(this only stands until a hondata product works on the a8)

i checked out the e-manage ultimate also. The one thing that piss me off is everything little thing cost extra... lol but yeah i hope you a8 guys do find a fully ems instead of a piggy back.

A full ems would be great but I get that odd feeling that is not as close as we all might hope. Bryan/Paul please prove me wrong lol. Either way pretty good fine, for a tuner on a budget or running low boost I think it was a sweet find. I'm curious since you said you where looking at piggy backs and what not. From what you saw what did you think would be the best option as far as they go? Just a little something I found...oh yea if you read it go ahead and check out the supported vehicles. Skip/Timot one I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this the most.

http://www.haltech.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=22 (http://www.haltech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=25&Itemid=22)

The haltech interceptor has proven to work with 7th gens, but its use only serves to prove my theory that hondata engine management is superior to any other EMS on the market.  

A fellow by the name of Jason in Florida had a 7th gen with a turbo kit and he used the Haltech interceptor.  This was either before or around the same time as Mike Sedacca was on Kpro with his swap and a rudimentary tune.

Jason used the Racing technology co. turbo kit and the Haltech EMS, while Mike used a kit he pieced together himself, along with one of Cham's first harnesses and a Hondata Kpro.  Mike and Jason got together for a couple of dyno pulls, and Mike's car beat out Jason's by quite a bit of power, and that was before Mase re-tuned his cam angles to net him more power.  Mike's car at peak produces 303whp at around 9PSI, while Jason's put out somewhere around 240-270 (I do not recall the exact numbers at this time).  Mike was able to achieve higher gains under less boost pressure with a kit that was purchased in pieces..as compared to an individual who purchased a $5000 kit with included EMS.  I'm pretty sure Mike's kit cost less than Jason's.

In short, yes it will work, and it has been proven to work in 7th gens.  Is it better than a Hondata EMS? No.

Most people think that I'm just a hondata fanboy..and that really isn't the case.  I've said this before and I'll say it again...Hondata holds a monopoly in the market since their Kpro EMS is capable of controlling VTC.  If you cannot control VTC, you are not making as much power as you could be making.  I will admit that research has shown VTC to be a hamper on super expensive gonad jarring uber-builds, but at that point, after $10,000 in engine modifications, you enter an entirely new echelon of engine management altogether.

For the non-super expensive gonad jarring uber-builds, proper VTC tuning is critical to achieving the best power output.  My famous quote for this situation is such:

You could have two identical RSX-S's built with the exact same go-fast parts (N/A, FI, N2O, etc) and if they varied ONLY in the respect that one had a Hondata Kpro, while the other used any other commercially available EMS....the Kpro equipped vehicle would run circles around the other car from dawn till dusk, in the snow, on 3 cylinders, in reverse, with no engine oil, in the dark, with the driver wearing a blindfold and playing tic-tac-toe with a passenger in the back seat.  

Any EMS can control fuel and ignition maps..but no other EMS can control VTC.

well said skippy, but I believe that hondata is only good if you plan to do major work to the car such as turbo, supercharger, cams, and headswap. But if for the people who just have full bolt on and don't plan to do anything else kpro might not be an smart option since they will be limiting the full potential of the kpro unit.

If anyone else have any experience with other tuning option feel free to chime in, and give us some insight from your experience.

Ken, you are correct but I'd like to emphasize the fact that you are speaking about Kpro in terms of the Accord only.  Our gains with a stock motor are miniscule when compared with a true VTEC K series engine.  Yes, it is quite expensive for the few horses you'd gain with a K24a4, but for the 20+ whp you'd gain above baseline with a stock K20a2, it's different.  Compounded with bolt-ons, those motors can push upwards of 50-60whp over stock, whereas our gains are sharply less.

I speak of Kpro both from the standpoint of the Accord, and the other K series apps out there.  You are correct that people considering Kpro should be 95% sure that their projected output will be over 250whp to justify the cost of the EMS, and it is not really economical to use it on internally stock non-force-fed K24a4's.  I mainly wanted to highlight the stark differences in output between a pre-fabbed turbo kit with bundled EMS vs. a home-brewed turbo kit with a hondata Kpro.

yeah i totally understand.

go big or go home, hondata is the only true tuning solution for us.

Skippy your my hero! DO you hear me my hero lol. I have spoke with you on many occasions through pm on over a thread on this forum and the old gen 7. I agree 100% with k-pro being the best on the market for k-series motors. Keep in mind I gave that link for the a8 guys out there like myself. Bryan/Paul may possibly crack the code on the motor, but I just posted it up for a piggy back solution to our motors(the thread was about piggy backs?). I just wanted to share some information I came across, throw it out there and see what people think. K-pro I think is best used in motors that have 250whp+. don't get me wrong if your going to boost 240whp and below I'm not saying you should use a piggy back but I think you can do that if you do it right and be safe. You could go the k-pro route but you pay all that money for something that will have less then 250whp?

Skip I do know who your talking about. He lived in FL and did go the RTC kit route. He made roughly 294whp. There was a difference between his set-up and Mike's but there was not that big of a difference. Jason had a high flow cat as well where as I don't think mike did?

You K-series guys are lucky. J-series get no love at all.

I'm sure I said it before, but I'll say it again.  When it comes to people that have bolt ons, you will benefit from a piggyback or K-Pro, but the gains don't justify the expense.  If you want to build your motor or boost it, you can also use a piggyback, but you will see the most gains from using K-Pro.  It is my opinion, but for anyone that has something as mild as cams to someone that has a fully built motor that's boosted, K-Pro is the best and only option.  I ran K-Pro on my car with bolt ons and completely stock internals to test the harness for reliability and there were gains.  I also did this because I have always had plans of building a motor.  Like Skippy has said multiple times, do it right the first time instead of making the costly mistake of half assing it first.

Case and point, lol.

So, if i were to stick to only bolt-ons, i might as well just forget about any flashing, right?

in my opinion there is no need for any kind of ecu mod unless you have either changed your internals or boosted the motor.

Right. This thread provided some excellent advice as far as tuning/flashing goes.

Jeff your so right. I have learned a fare amount of information from this thread, let alone reading about the products discussed.

getting the APEXI NEO. If I fail at least you guys will learn from my mistake. So I am going to be the first one to jump in the water. wish me luck. hopefully I can get it all down for less then 500 bucks. APEXI NEO + boomslang harness + tune

have fun. maybe this can turn out to be a cheap solution for us bolt-on'ers. I think I'm still on tim's side on this, though. It's K-Pro, or No-Go.

yeah since no one knows if it will work I want to find out myself. This is for all the bolt on brothers. All the All motor build and F/I go kpro  its the best.

It will work, but the gains will be marginal.  You can only get so much power by adjusting fuel and VTEC engagement.  Without the ability to adjust timing and cam angle, the potential to make power is significantly reduced.  IMHO, for bolt ons, it's a waste of money.  Guys with full bolt ons and K-Pro only made about 10-15 WHP, so I would only expect you to make an additional 5-7 WHP with this.

yeah I know. Also this only can adjust AFR and not i-vtec and that is like 1/3 way to make power. The other 2 are ignition timing and cam angles. I think I can make it down to 300 bucks if I just do T clamps but I need the ECU PIN out. If you can get me that ECU PIN out for an auto accord that would be great.

I will come to Cali and slap the shit out of you if you think I'm not going to give you a hard time about using T clamps.  Are you trying to ruin your car?

T Clamps on engine management are you feeling okay?

Sorry I just woke up so please slap me. lol. I mean to say T-taps *just to see if it will run first* Then the boomslang is going to get order or else I will be wasting money on something that would not work.

Solder and heat shrink is the only way to go man. Don't T splice that shit. If you're talking about engine management, T splices will only be a ticking time bomb for when they fail. That's the worst advice anyone can give. Smack your friend on behalf of all of us here at ECM for giving WRONG advice.

T-Taps are not a good electrical connection.  Only half ass lazy motherfuckers use those.  You run the risk of frying your ECU and damaging your motor if you use those.  Just pony up and get the harness if you're not willing to solder and heat shrink.

Fine boomslang it is gotta wait a few weeks. its on back order.

Good decision man. Do it right the first time and you'll be fine. If it doesn't work out for you, you're harness is unmolested and you could turn around and sell the whole thing.

alright kool. I have an Auto that why the harness is going to take a little long since most of the boomslang harness are MT. Its also another extra 20 but w/e as along as it work and doesn't blow up my car I will be happy. I am just going to hook it up first to monitor AFR. Most likely I am probably going to hold off on it because school starts next week.