EliteCM.net

You may be able to tune it with k pro. I'm not sure though I don't know to much about the K series.

You may get a better answer if you post this in the correct forum :)

+1 to that. You posted this up in the J series forum buddy. Though now that I think about it, he may not see this thread until it gets moved because he'll search through the K series forum. OOPS!

Not sure why you posted in the J Series section, but I'll move it to the K Series section for you.  You may want to do a little more research before you actually attempt this.  I'm not sure what you've looked into yet, but it's fairly well known that Cham makes kpro harnesses for K24A4's.  In our conversations, I'm sure that he can make a kpro harness for a K24A8.  I am not sure, but you may be able to use the harness that Hondata makes for the TSX and modify it.

You also need to swap pistons and rods.  If the K24A8 block is anything like the K24A4 block, you can get away with using TSX pistons and rods, or you could go with aftermarket components.  You will not be able to just swap the head without changing your internals.  You probably won't need anything more than better flowing injectors for a fuel system upgrade if you're only doing a head swap with OEM components.  There are more parts, but I can't think of them off hand right now.  But you definitely need to change out your timing chain tensioner, chain, and guides I believe.

Tim the a4 and a8 blocks are pretty much identical from what Ive heard and seen people work with on k20a.org and vtecnique you got PM

This is the link to Chameleon's build http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13887
hes located in NY but Im pretty sure hes got a shop up there, not suggesting it for build purposes but for validity on his post. Either way your going to need a loooooot more than a fuel pump. TSX rods/pistons or some other pistons with valve recesses, rods obviously, RSX-S oil pump if you plan on running Kpro and raising the redline. Then some other stuff like a matching manifold as well.

You have a lot to learn man.  You'd be better off doing a K24A2 engine swap and running kpro on that.  For the amount of work involved with the head swap, it's not even worth it.  You may as well go for the entire long block.

I already replied to your topic on G7A...it's not usually a good idea to post the same question on multiple forums because it can introduce wrong information and it gives people like me a headache because I have to retype or repost what I said on other forums to keep my credibility up...

Tim has some good points.  It is a lot of work to do a headswap but there are also some good reasons to do it.  You can acquire parts over time and it will cost less than buying an entire longblock plus the upgrade parts you want.  However, the headswap option should be reserved for people wishing to make more than 300whp.  If you are not well versed with K series engines and just want something with more power, you can straight up swap to a K24A2 and wait for hondata to release an EMS solution for your application.  If you're not happy with around 220whp with a stock TSX motor you can opt for better cams or a blower and that will bump you up considerably.

here is my post from G7A:

Do your research on k20a.org. I'm not sure if a K24a8 has been used in a K24/K20 hybrid yet. I would probably get a K24a4 shortblock and a K20a2 head and build up a motor outside the car. It will cost you less downtime and it's less of a risk than opening up your stock motor. Either way, go to K20a.org and start doing research. There is an extensive special parts list that is specific to both the K24a4 and K20a2 because you'll need certain parts from each engine to complete the build. Nobody here will have the answers for you except for Cham and he's just about as busy as I am these days.

Try using proper English.  That will help when you want people to take you seriously.

hahah be nice Tim! but Skip Idk where the post is but Ive seen people put a 3lobe head on a a8 block. Either way Im willing to bet the only big difference between the two blocks is the pistons, which would have to get yanked out anyways, either way vtecnique like everyone else said do research and did you get my PM?

I feel I should know the answer is no but I do remember someone doing this swap with Kpro on Gen7.1 and never really dug into the thread,..

I was wondering could you run a k24a2 with just a piggyback system? Obviously it wont rev to 7200 and have that extra power but JW if it can be done

It was done by one of the old school Gen7Accord members that hasn't been active for years.  He hydrolocked his K24A4 coupe and got a sweet deal on a K24A2.  He was running it on Greddy eManage.  KPro would be more suitable, but eManage will work.

Very cool! Gonna look into this in a few months,.. Dont exactly feel too confident about having a F/I k24a8 w/ 50k+ Miles on it for too long. Next project I guess

wait you can piggy back the stock ecu to control the vtec and vtc angles using the emanagement?

You can do it, but it's not recommended.  A piggy back will not control VTC.

Usually piggybacks can control VTEC, but VTC is something only Kpro can control.

^Really? How can they? I mean does it involve retarding ignition timing? Im using the F/IC, very interested in this to be honest!

What's so strange about it? Piggybacks can control VTEC because they tap into the wiring harness.  If it's honda specific, it should be able to control VTEC...but it's an AEM EMS so you may not have the option..

I'm not sure about how the engine prepares for VTEC engagement, but I do know how it switches fuel maps back and forth.

^I thought Vtec was engaged through locking the rocker arm pins in place through oil pressure, and yes the piggyback is hooked into the wiring harness but its not like thats a normal function on cars universally and F/ICs arent exactly car specific,... either way if they can control Vtec why not Redline then? and as for the EMS I figure it would have a better chance of controlling Vtec since they are car specific. So I dont think they really can, atleast not the F/IC

well now that I think about it...since the FIC is not honda specific, and it's not an EMS, then it cannot control VTEC or your redline since your stock ECU is still somewhat in control in the background.  

VTEC is indeed engaged by locking the rocker arm pins, but all you need for that to happen is voltage to energize the VTEC solenoid in order to direct that high pressure oil into the rocker arms.  The so called Ebay 'VTEC controllers' were merely a potentiometric device used to alter the VTEC engagement point that did not adjust the fuel maps from the low cam to the hi-cam which causes improper operation and an alternating lean/stoich or rich/stoich condition.

^ Skip is there anyway you know of to dissable the vtec solenoid without catching CEL and without Kpro? I was interested in ADIs idea with the ground down Cams and running Hi-lobe all the time,... then again that sounds like a kpro specific function,..

I would highly suggest against going that route...Toda makes a VTEC and VTC killer setup that will essentially turn a K series into a non-VTEC B series with a million and one horsepower, but you'd need to do so much extensive work before doing any of those conversions that it is totally not worth it for a street car.

In addition, you are confusing a few K series concepts...

K24a4 VTEC engages at 2200 RPM, this means that as long as you're not stuck in traffic, you're in VTEC.  You cannot do a "VTEC killer" on a budget in this way.  Doing so doesn't even make sense because the K24a4 is in VTEC at virtually all times except for idle.  You're already running on the hi-cam at all times.

What you're thinking of is modifying a K20a2 to be VTEC-less.  Again, you cannot do this on a budget.  You need the special kit to convert the rocker arms properly, and a set of specially made camshafts to run without VTEC...not to mention the proper ECU to run it.  This will result in an erratic idle, utterly gutless low end, and a top end you'll never be able to use on the street.  This work precedes the amount of block-work you'd need to do since this modification will turn your motor into a high revving monster.  In other words...it will cost too much money and be virtually un-streetable once you've gotten it built.

The best idea for you would be to blow $3k on a TSX motor, and another $3k on a supercharger and be done with it.

The Accord k24 runs both valves off of the high lobe once vtec is engaged right? I understood all of this before and feel brain dead after moving away from N/A and going F/I, thanks in advance Skip

Why would FI make anything different from a NA application when you're talking about VTEC engagement?

whoa whoa whoa...you're FI now? When the f%ck did that happen?

Come on Skip! Check the Signature,.. JRSCs going in on the 29th and gonna be done the 2nd,

and Tim it makes a difference with what I research and what information I commit to memory is all, I used to have a great grasp on most info K-series worthy but now its kind of tough since I cancelled plans for a frank build back in January.

But yea scratch the previous question, I think Ima just do an a2 swap, no need to dig into OEM guts without Kpro anyways

Well I saw "C-day 5.2.09" and I didn't know what it meant....i've also been rather distant from forums for the past month or so....still getting my bearings here.

Good to have you back dropping the knowlege.

Naw I understand Skip, Im tryna get a small entourage to come with me to Ptuning that day so I can get tons of pics and videos, I figure Ill start a thread about S/Cing a k24a8 or just post in the Jackson Racing Supercharger thread once I gets my kicks for the weekend!

This is very interesting to me because I've been thinking about reflash options for this vehicle. I have a 2005 Legacy gt with a stage 1 reflash but I didn't need to buy any EM units. My tuner was able to get into the ECU from the OBD ports on his lap top. He basically uploaded the the stage 1 maps and modified the timing  and upped the boost to 16 Lbs. we did a few runs before he let me go on my merry way. By the way, the 05 Legacy gt is DBW.

There is a new product that Hondata is coming out with next month, FlashPro (http://hondata.com/flashpro.html), which sounds similar to the reflash you had done with your Legacy through the OBDII Port.  I don't believe this is going to compatible with the 7th Gen Accord K24's because the Hondata information states the 06+ Civic Si has a different ECU architecture from ours and that it will only work with other Hondas and Acuras that are 07+.  It looks like the best tuning option for any K Series motor will still be KPro with a dual ECU harness.  For the DBW guys, a swap for a cable driven TB isn't that hard to do.  I also know that Cham should be able to get KPro to work with a DBW Accord if he had time to work with one.

ive spoken with cham and he is supposed to be developing a harness for my k24a8, if all goes well we are going to meet and test it out.

Where are you and are you planning on coming up here, or is he coming down to you?

i live in central va. we were talking about meeting halfway.

^Thats awesome Icebox itd be nice to see a DBW kproed Accord, think this maybe a first! and as for flashpro the FG2/FA2 Sis can be controlled through a DC5 ECU w/ kpro so I wouldnt be suprised if the huge difference in the supposed ECU architecture is the fact that its located in the engine bay (I think thats a foolish move by honda, like their engine bays arent cramped enough) but yea this will be something Im going to look into for sure

Oy just read more on that link definately a different ECU! oh well,.. a much cheaper solution than Kpro and a possible solution for 06-07s so ill be looking into this one

yea, ive got my fingers crossed too!

Hopefully I'll be coming down with Cham for one of these sessions if I have the opportunity.



So, you think the ECU architechture has to do with where it's located in the car?  You don't think that Hondata might be concerned with something a little more important, like the PCB?

(http://www.tamemymind.com/blog/images2007/smiley-bangheadonwall.gif)



You still think this will work with your car even though there's a good amount of evidence saying that it won't?  Am I missing something here, or am I not giving you enough credit?

+2 sounds soo soo good.

Well let me apologize for not choosing my words more wisely. First off when I addressed the ECU architecture issue I had not clicked on the link yet and seen that those were Hondata's words, I assumed this was speculation on anothers part. Secondly no your not giving enough credit and yes you are missing alot! and finally Id like to thank you for misquoting my post in an attempt to show us your never ending knowledge of the K-series.

I just hit the quote button and cut out the fluff.  Let's break it down further, since I misquoted you originally.


Right here it seems that you've either read my earlier post, which was regurgitated from Hondatas page, or you read the info on the Hondata site yourself.


Wait a fucking minute, I guess I was wrong.  He just contradicted himself after saying that he knows the ECU is different from his, he still thinks this is a solution for the 06-07 Accord.  Here's the only way I can translate it into what any logical person see:

"I know it won't work, but it's cheaper than kpro and might work with my car (although there's a good amount of evidence telling me otherwise) so I'm going to be looking into this."

Now, I'm not a wealth of information or whatever misconception you have of me.  However, I am an asshole and will call people on their bullshit.  At the same time, we are here to help educate each other.  I already attempted to point out in my original post about the FlashPro that it would not work based on Hondata's information.  I guess you know more than me and Hondata though.  Good luck with that.

Tim, it may be possible to replace the Accord ECU with one from the SI to make this possible, need to look at the SI ECU pinouts and see how well it does or does not translate.

Hahah wow! For the record Tim, I said possible solution, and no that was not fluff and I understand this is not plug and fuckin play. Thanks for misinterpretting, and on another note about 4 years ago someone else would have said similar things as you did about using Kpro on our cars and now what do we do?
We use a harness that one of our members made! Soooo! applying the same formula of running a dual ECU setup one for the engine and one for the rest of the car, (this has been done with ECUs of different designs not sure to the extent of which they are different but worth a look) Lets look at the $$$ break down!

Kpro on a 06-07 Accord!
02-04 RSX-S ECU - $150 (not likely but for the sake of fairness this is the cheapest I saw a FG2 ECU as well)
Kpro - $995 if not already purchasing a kproed ECU
Cham's Harness - $325
o2 Sensor - $150
Other Misc. Items, cable throttle,pedal - $200+
total - $1820 w/o cost of tune

Flashpro possibility on an 06-07 Accord
06+ Civic Si ECU - $150
Flashpro - $795
Custom Harness - $400
Other Misc. Parts prolly o2 sensor and a few others - $400
total - $1745

Thats not even a $100 difference but then again all of these are obviously conservative guesstimates minus the cost of the Flashpro. My point being apparently your giving me less credit in my thought process, but I appreciate you making me go through the entire forumla, as well as explain every bit of research I do, in addition to laying out my plan of attack to make sure it has Tims stamp of approval. From now on lets not try to shoot people's ideas down especially when we do not have all of the information about their projects/plans/resources.

On another note I do appreciate the apology for the misquote, thanks

i think its reasonable to assume that a dual ecu setup is possible with flashpro. use a civic si ecu w/ flashpro to run the motor while your stock ecu runs the hvac and other controls. i would assume that cham or someone else with enough time on their hands could accomplish this.

Actually with a newer civic ECU I would not be surprised if all the HVAC and other controls are already on the ECU and it will just need a conversion harness to plug in, time will tell. I will get a suscription for the 06 Civic SI in my alldata account and print off the ecu digram and start looking at the differences to see what can be done.

good lookin out paul

I guess you misinterpreted what I was saying also Bryan.  Maybe I should give you more credit than I have been previously.  I guess we can only see what happens with this.  If it is possible, and your parts list pricing is accurate, I would say that the $100 or so difference would not be worth the effort to do the R&D just to see if this would work, when you get more features with kpro.  Your thought process doesn't require a stamp of approval from anyone here, unless someone else is doing the work for you.  I can't say that I agree with all of your logic when it comes to performance as whole and feel that there are better ways of doing things.  I've seen what happens when people think they know everything and ignore the suggestions of others, and I've also seen what happens when advice is taken from knowledgable people.  That's why guys like Mike Sedacca built a solid turbo kit and is making 300+ hp, and guys like itzjonjon69 are wondering why they've blown a head gasket and their motor is covered in oil.  I'm always going to tell people the truth when I think something is a bad idea.  Sometimes I have been right, and other times I have been wrong.  Whenever I post about stuff I'm not well versed in, I make sure to get feedback from guys like Skippy and Cham first.  If you don't want me to be honest with you, that's fine.  You can continue to do your thing, and I will avoid giving you feedback.  I just hope that you don't end up cutting corners that result in damage to your motor and a dent in your wallet.

Well we all misinterpret so thats my bad I just didnt like the little head banging the wall icon but input and advice is always appreciated, and as for itzjonjon69 Im not too familiar with his build but I remember AT GP coupe with a greddy kit and useless cams because of E-manage Blue.

As for kpro vs. flashpro kpro is the winner hands down from what hondata has even said, but hell! Im curious to explore another option and as Paul said the Si may have HVAC controls which means I wont have to run dual ECUs, hopefully Gauges will hook up correctly. Im just hoping since the 7.5 Accord was an 06-07 and the FG2 Si is an 06+ that honda incorporated some similar technology in the 7.5, doubtful but possible.

And then again no parts have been bought and then we'll know this is a dead end and nowone will need to go down this road again, and honestly you respect Paul's work dont you? I think hed smack me for going about this without any possibility of success! Ok enough of this bitchin! Ill be looking at this option more with Paul and if not Ill just be eventually running kpro prolly with the DBW harness if all goes good with Icebox's harness.

BTW should this thread be renamed or should this be moved to the ECU thread?

Did a quick look, more to come, but right off the bat.

The 06SI ECU directly controls the DBW throttle, no more external control box (Can be wired for)
The 06SI ECU does have HVAC controls in it.
The 06SI ECU at first glance uses all the same sensors as the 7.5gen including the MAF, but will require a different primary O2 sensor.

So far looks doable.....

I'll probably edit this thread and split shit off.  We have taken this really far off topic.  I'll try to get it taken care of tonight after work.

I dont think there's need for editing.  Besides you guys have a pissing match you all provided good info as to what can be done, what cant be done and what might be possible.

I want to split this thread off, since it's gotten so far off topic.

very intriguing!

People asked, so Im tryin to deliver and keep you all updated, but I figure Ill stop breaking my posts up in different threads and just keep them in here from now on, so here ya go.

Oh and something I never mentioned that Paul told me upon disassembly, the k24a8 block is outfitted for oil squirters like the k24a2. I heard that halfway through the engine drop in but was glad we didnt use em anyways because they lower your oil pressure and since you know!  8-) I could care less.

So driving the Car up to Paul's was nearly impossible yesterday! I got on 123 and on the way up the hill (about a 40 degree incline) the car seems to be hesitant to let me keep going. I look at my speed and its dropped from 55mph to 40mph in 5th! Mind you this is all being controlled by the a8s ECU still with no adjustments. I get it up the hill and a CEL kicks on. So I pullover and scan it for problems, Knock Sensor. I figure maybe I got a bad batch of gas, clear it and lug to the gas station down the street!

I fill up with 93 octane, and just for added insurance go get some Octane Boost, toss it all in there for the rest of the ride. Clear the CEL think everythings peachy and start to drive again. still the knock CEL comes back but,.. and its below 500 miles on this new engine so under no circumstances am I doing anything but putting it along at the speed limit and taking nearly 20 seconds to get to 55! Yea it was getting pretty bad! So I decided alright 450+ on the initial break-in itll be ok to give it some more gas 1. Just to see if itd do anything for my sense of satisfaction. and 2. Maybe id get there at a decent rate and,.. Ill say I think I approached babying the car the wrong way at first.

The way I figure it is if an a8s ECU kicks vtec over at 2200 rpms, then the tiny bit of fuel being dripped in while at idle isnt sufficient and it hasnt been. (hence my insanely oscilating AFR gauge readouts due to a narrowband sensor) According to the ECUs readings im in constant vtec, so I approach this a different way and give it a fair amount of gas, rev to about 2k to pull off and then a bit more throttle (30%) over 2.2k so itll give proper fueling for a vtec k24a8 head and like magic the car drives close to normal. Granted I only have .8k rpms to work with and of course that crazy AFR isnt doing my ulsers any favors but its working. So a power update, after it hit 500miles Paul said it was alright to move it past 3k WITHIN REASON! So I took it to about 3800. and I must say even without proper fueling to the car and only giving it about 30% throttle the thing can pull like my old a8 at nearly 60-70% throttle even with the knock CELs on!

Talked to two different tunners, both said VTEC needs to be set 4400+ RPMs or she will fall on her face.....

Time for a different EMS option.  I hope the FIC works since you already have that.

The FIC is only a temp solution and will probably end up buying Brians from him for use on one of my V6 builds, I am still investigating the wiring changes, but it is looking real good for flashpro for the A8s, it will be a heela lot cleaner and elegant solution for the A8, I am not knocking Chams work in anyway, it just makes alot more sense if this can be gotten down to a single ECU, conversion harness and o2 sensor.

I hope it works out with the fpro and a different ECU.  I would love to run a single ECU, but I am also happy with what I have right now.  I will be visiting a Hondata dealer tomorrow with Cham to get a new tune on my car.  They also make custom harnesses, so maybe I can pick his brain for you if you want me to Paul.

Actually I looked real close at the two wiring diagrams and this is looking more and more doable with nothing more than a conversion harness to go from the A8 connectors to the SI connectors.....

very nice to hear! and I just sold a bunch of packages today so ill have $$$ on the way too! but yea as was previously stated a single ecu with the overall options of kpro is like a dream come true additionally most ppl don't swap to an 06+ si ecu so there cheap and so are there o2 sensors for now!

FUUuuuhuhuuuUCK!!! So Talked with Paul about 7x this morning and it looks like the ECU isnt accepting the F/IC with the modified head and higher compression! Oh well lesson learned! Gotta find another way around this problem!

On a good note, the engine is mechanically sound and partially broken in, which was my biggest fear but, the a8 ECU is detecting way too much knock and additionally not letting Paul add fuel to compensate for more air nor retard timing to counteract compression. So even if it had worked id pretty much be driving a stock k24a8 until 4400 rpms with an adjusted a8 vtec window anyways!

So were currently in the works to get this new route all hammered out, and Ill have updates as things develop. hopefully itll be up and running by next saturday for the BBQ! A shame tho! Im not gonna go to the East Coast Richmond meet now :-/  

Continuing to keep you all posted on the project as usual tho!

Hopefully FPro is a solution.  Too bad it's not available yet.  It may be worth talking to Cham and seeing if he has time to take a look at everything the next time he's in Baltimore.

Prolly wont be able to get it up to Baltimore according it Paul, when I drove it on Tuesday it seemed as tho the a8 ECU was starting to adjust to the differences in the air, obviously it needed tuning but it started to bitch and bitch less according to the AFR, then again it did throw different CELs that day, instead of just the Cat. Conv. one it started tossing out knock sensor CELs as well,.. if this last route doesnt work I may not be able to drive the ride til Fpro or until I save $$$ for my buddy's Kpro,.. we'll see

Well, the plan at this point is to install the Si ecu which can properly run the 50d VTC, MAF and VTec, basically it can handle everything without tuning except for the displacement increase, for that I have already installed a set of RDX injectors (410cc) and can use the fic to purley fatten up the fuel and let the Si ecu run the rest for now.

WOW! IDK why I didnt think about this before! Buuuut,.. I could kick myself now,..

Definately wish I had used the 09+ TSX Pistons (11.0 cr) instead of the 04-08s (10.5 cr) Seriously I wanna slam me head through a wall,

http://k20a.org/forum/showpost.php?p=456204&postcount=1

:-( even worst is,.. there the same price,.. and of course you could say 11.0 is too high to S/C but FG2 Si guys are using the Eaton M62 as well so yea! Well you win some and you lose some,.. a little knowledge to anyone planning on building a k frank in the future!

^ i think ur right 11.0:1 compression is not 2 high for a s/c applications, turbo its probably cutting it very close, i have even seen where people build up their k20a2 and k20z1 and throw forged 12.5 compression pistons and make crazy power and have lots of power down low (s/c'ed)

they also did some testing and i believe (have to find the thread) 12.5:1 was the highest compression where they were able to make power (on a m62 blower) anything higher then they started making less, because they had to cut on the timing a lot cause of knocking.

Mmmm... well I still have a knot in my stomach thinking about it and hell my cars not even tuned yet! Well Whatever! Your running 11.0 in your k24a arent you ADI? I mean most 06+Si guys are dropping 12.5s in their frank blocks and making upwards of 250whp,.. Hell Ill just be happy to get 230+whp max NA. Guess that'll correlate to about 270 chp.

Looking for 400+chp w/ FI running no more than 10lbs. So lets see! If Paul can duplicate what Im looking for then thatll be easily attainable with the right $$$. Oh well Im just rambling now! I need to get to bed! Night all you crazy Kers!

Skip, how do you recon a K24A2 will make 220whp stock?

recon? well, a k24a2 is basically a lower revving oem frank engine(if 10.5 cr), and those make 220+whp generally when tuned, why wouldn't an a2 do the same? obviously kpro is needed as well, or another ems that controls vtc, only other options would be flashpro. Possibly AEM EMS, not familiar with it tho

To my knowledge, the stock K24a2 motor makes 180whp. I'm not sure if I believe that Kpro will grant you a +40whp through tuning. If it does, that is pretty cool.

205 hp/164 tq for the 2006+ TSX.

Sorry I did leave out something. VTC advancement, the a2s only have 25 degree VTC gears (or whatever you wanna call em) and 3 lobe k20s have 50 degree advancement gears. That provides a pretty big increase in power over the entire rev range.

And no Im not saying Kpro is going to give you a minimum 40+whp but with the possiblity of an extra 1300 rpms over an a2s stock 7200 redline (not sure on the a2s valve train longevity at this rpm and the Oil Pump prolly cavitates around 7.5k+ id imagine)

and another 25 degrees of VTC advancement, full VTC, ignition fueling control and of course other parameters the factory has programmed for a completely stock a2, 40+whp is definately within reach and the fact that the a2s crank is a little different from the a4/8s so revving higher may be easier on the engine in terms of longevity and effort.

Obviously this is assuming full generic bolt-ons too

Those numbers are from the crank...not at the wheels.

Yup, I went with chp instead of whp because no company ever gives you whp and we never really talked about drivetrain.  I'm just posting the information that I found.  I'm not trying to argue or say that anyone is wrong.  Unless you have a TSX to take to the dyno, I'm going to go with that.  Now, I understand your speculation about Skippy's comment.  I'm not sure if it's a typo or not.  I assume that he not intentionally bullshitting anyone considering that he is one of the 4 people that I trust and go to for advice about performance upgrades, and he also works for Acura.  On top of all that, I know him pretty well, consider him a close friend, and know that he doesn't make bullshit claims.

I too trust the words of the Skip....i just found this to be surprising.

(http://www.k20a.org/chameleon/dynocharts/K24AR_DTR_CAI_dyno.jpg)
http://k20a.org/forum/showpost.php?p=38228&postcount=19

Granted this is a k20 head on it but its similar enough and a stock a2 bottom end. Even more so addition of ITR cams may have slightly helped the top end even tho the a2 have the most aggressive/largest overall K-series cams. Just so you get an idea. Additonally the redline is set at 7500. Easily 220+whp even if this was an a2 head with the same redline.

All good points, and we know it's possible to make good power with proper valvetrain upgrades.  The original debate was about a bone stock K24A2 making 220 hp.  It's not fair to compare a K24 bottom end with a higher flowing A2 head and the more aggressive Type R cams.  I just don't think it's a fair comparison.

^No the ITR cams arent more aggressive, perhaps the Vtec lobe is larger(but I dont believe it is) but the lower lobes on an a2 are larger. As for the head not sure there are extreme differences on a k20 head vs. k24a2 head. But Ill find a stock a2 head dyno just so we can be accurate. I saw one on Evans-Tuning.com a few days ago! Ill check there

From what I recall, the Type R cams are a desired upgrade for the Type S guys.  I'm not sure what the specific benefits are, or what the actual difference is with the cam profiles.  Without the specs, I can't be 100% sure I'm right though.  I would assume that people would want the ITR cams for a reason though.

The type R cams are the same as the k20z1 cams from what Ive heard,.. kind of hard to get JDM part #s but Ive heard that numerous times. And looking at a thread where someone actually compared both cams (wanna say they are z1s and not a2s I could be mistaken tho) to the k24a2 cams and the TSXs had larger low lobes but a slightly smaller vtec lobe. So overall the TSXs were better because the difference between the TSX low lobe and k20 low lobe was greater than the difference between the twos vtec lobe. <---- that was wordy! Ill find the post tho

http://k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=43261&highlight=k20z3+cams

Heres the link and proved myself wrong in the process on one thing, the z1 cams are not Type R cams, sooo yea not sure where they fall but as it shows just the 04-05 TSX cams were larger than 02-04 RSX-S cams

well here a dyno of a k24a2 stock bottom end stock head

the only mods are bolts ons

rbc intake manifold
asp short ram intake
oem k20a2 (intake cam) - bigger vtec lobe
asp 4-1 race header
kpro
50 degree VTC gear

**K20a2 intake cam = 12.27mm lift
**K24a2 intake cam = 11.45mm lift

Vtec engagement at wot is at 3500 rpm and at part throttle is at 5000 rpm

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2444/3636491896_83e99c5328.jpg)

Great Find ADI! As it stands I plan to upgrade to aftermarket cams but if I were going OEM id go TSX. Just because I know I enjoy having more power off the line than extreme top end. And after a S/Cer is installed top end wont need the extra kick that a k20 vtec lobe gives. Just an overall better power balance IMO. although I have seen the mix and match of the TSX exhaust and k20 cam a lot.

Like Tim said a few lines up...my argument was regarding a bone stock k24a2

^^
This is not a stock engine....sure you can get these numbers with a modified cams and kpro.

To put an end to this debate...taken from Hondata.com

K24A2 Stock : 184hp / 165 ft/lbs torque

(http://www.hondata.com/images/tsxtuning/dyno-supercharged-tsx-small.gif)

im sure what skip meant was a stock motor with bolt ons and kpro, as in no valve train mods, touching the head or bottom end of the block (220whp is very easy 2 achieve), which is why he mention 2 wait til hondata releases an EMS.

Not pertaining to previous posts but i thought this was pretty incredible

The power of E85
(http://dynos.evans-tuning.com/245whpblackekk24.jpg)
245 whp on a stock k24a1 bottom end(didnt mention a k20 oil pump either?) w/k20a head running E85, and bolt-ons
http://forums.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=5284